Chachaman wrote:
Dov--do u mind being a little less explicit? I know part of recovery is about not sugar coating what we did, but still.
No, I cannot, chaver. I think that helping people perhaps get sober is
far more important than whatever reason you may have for me being less explicit. And I respect you as a friend (at least a virtual one
![](https://guardyoureyes.com/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/emoticons/new/wink.png)
!). I also believe that sugar-coating is
exactly what we all do in order to maintain just enough self-respect so that we can continue the same lifestyle of meshigineh 'struggling' and losing.
So why would I want to be part of the
problem?
I respect you and what you do here, a lot, Chachaman. And much of what I wrote may not apply to you. I recognize that not all guys here are as bad as some others here. So let's make a deal. The last time I checked, the average porn-using frum guy here was not just looking at girl-scout cookie ads. When most of us here look at our porn or use fantasy in our heads, it's about terrible, embarrassing stuff: naked people having sex, plain and poshut - and worse. We are looking at the most explicit stuff there is. So I need to be explicit about recovery, too.
As soon as you can show me that 'impropriety' is not occurring over and over at the hands of us frummies here
while we are at our computers going from image to image of schmutz, or while we are desperately masturbating ourselves to explicit fantasy, I will gladly tone down my descriptions of what our lusting is really all about. And I mean that seriously, respectfully, and as a real friend.
Sincerely,
Dov
P.S. So many guys say they 'opened up' to their Rabbi or a friend about this issue, or that they "pray to Hashem for help" for it, etc. Yet
many are not telling the truth - for they are not explicit about it enough to give forth an honest picture of what's
really going on with them!
For example, they say, "I was nichshol, rebbi, in shmiras eynayim and come lidei zera levatola, often b'ratzon....I am so ashamed." Or they say such things in sh'moneh esrei at Sh'ma koleinu or S'lach lonu...as if Hashem has time for such meaningless talk.
Here we were last night, sitting and chatting with some strange girl and using explicit and vulgar language - because it's
expressing ourselves and our real desires (at the time)...but when it comes to talking with Yedid nafsheinu the Ribono shel Olam, we are
indirect? All of a sudden makpid on nivul peh?! And no, I am
not talking about using the F-word in davening at all!
That's just cursing, and totally different than what I am referring to. No, I am
not saying 'two wrongs make a right' - and I am
not advocating the describing of sexual fantasies to Hashem or others in lurid detail. But there is a big difference between frivolous detail that is meant to excite - and between blunt, painful honesty that I can cry about. It's just the truth. It hurts to expose the truth - so it helps. Cuz it is the
change that it hurting so much,
not the shame!
So I use the phrase 'sex with my wife' in sh'moneh esrei when I am talking to Him about concerns I have with sex with my wife. I use the word 'masturbation' when I am talking to Him about masturbation, and if I was struggling with the desire to look at a certain woman's chest, I say to Him in Sh'emoneh esrei those
exact words. He knows it all - He won't faint
![](https://guardyoureyes.com/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/emoticons/new/shocked.png)
! I see no reason to pretend I am really about bechinos of klipos, or something. He may see it that way, but it's none of my business. He wants my heart - Rachmonoh liba bo'ei. Your heart si your
real heart...not what your heart
'should' be.
Isn't Emess the
only avodah sh'bleiv there really is?
So I believe that anyone who says considerations of 'lashon nekiyah' gets in the way of being factual and honest, has a very different experience and understanding of tefiloh than I do. And such tefiloh would be useless to me now, just as it was all those years that I was busy masturbating myself in yeshivah and davening with 'propriety'.
But if it is working for you, that's great. And I mean it.
(Boy, another megillah!
![](https://guardyoureyes.com/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/emoticons/new/blush.png)
)