I need to hear from someone that has succeeded in this,
at the moment I just can't see why it's worth the struggle.

Hi, Guy. I am b"H one who is succeeding today, for many years now. What would you like to talk about?

I'm married with a kid, and I need help getting inspired to fight this.
I have been having problems with my relationship with god in other areas as well
(maybe as a direct result from my addiction) so much so that I found the taPHSIC ( or however u spell it) program not helpful at all from the shvua aspect.
so telling me that I will get from god is not the way to go at the moment.
please advise

I'm not sure how helpful this is but there are lots of goyishe, atheist forums on the internet regarding porn and masturbation addiction, and they see a lot of compelling reasons to do this that have nothing to do with Hashem.

I've attached a list of 100 benefits that many people see when they quit these things. Most people don't see all of them but basically everyone sees some, maybe even a lot. The list comes from goyishe sites but I copied just the list onto word without the source because honestly, you don't have to look at goyishe forums, GYE is the best.

Perhaps more important though, could you please share with us why you joined GYE in the first place? What feelings or situation did you experience to prompt that decision?

First of all thanks for the list.Although I don't find it helpful ( maybe only no. 33. Not supporting organized crime )I appreciate the effort.As far as goyish sites I agree with you 100%. I know that torah is true and that it's the only real way to go but I am soooooooooooooooo fed up of god trying me again and again and again!Its like each time I try to get up I'm just slapped back down again.
I found GYE as I was searching for a reason to try again.In truth a have a reason,which is my beautiful family,but since that hasn't stopped me before I don't see how that's going to help.

Something tells me that if you wouldn't have a reason for wanting to stop, you wouldn't be posting here. Deep down you're frustrated with wasting your life, nay, wasting your opportunity to live, and you're searching for a way to get back to earth.

Welcome Home.

O.k. correct me if i'm wrong, but the way I see it, a person first needs the will to change and then he needs the way to change.having one without the other is pointless.
Maybe you're right and deep down my neshama is screaming for me to return to god.point is that right now,I AINT FEELING IT!
So maybe I should rephrase my earlier question from "Whats the point",to:Now that I am feeling like I'm never going to get out of this hell hole, how do I generate the will to pick up the glove again.

you must be feeling something or you wouldn't be here. What do you feel?

What do you think are the first steps you need to take?

HI GUY! WELCOME! Many of us have felt just the way you do right now. I've tried countless times to stop, nothing helps. I'm just doomed to be this way forever. Oh, if I could just get motivated enough once and for all...

The problem is that motivation doesn't last. All the motivation in the world can only take us so far. We don't need more motivation, we need real change. We need to do the actions that bring about real change.

I would suggest reading the handbook, click the "dov quotes" link in my signature, see if something resonates with you.

You obviously want a way out. Don't wait for the right motivation. Do the right actions.

Hey Guy, hope this post isn't too long or boring...

If your goal is to get the will to "pick up the glove again," I agree with you, Guy - there is no point to 'picking up the gloves', so don't bother. True, for the regular fellow (I can't use the word 'guy' here cuz of you!) it may be a fair goal. But for the chronic relapser who may actually be an addict - the religious reasons to 'quit' are just useless. We simply do not care enough, and that is actually normal![Refer to the story of Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai on his deathbed, who blessed his students (who were [i]tanno'im[/i]!) that their consideration of G-d watching them should be as real to them as when people are watching them. Our faith alone is certainly not enough to stop us.]

I believe that few if any really care enough purely about the religious issues or the morality of it, to actually do whatever it takes to quit their habit of masturbating themselves and using porn as a crutch to tolerate a boring or annoying life. It just does not work. And rather than 'to do Hashem's Will' being their true motivation, I wager that those few 'good boys' who do succeed at quitting without using other tools to change the way they live life, probably only stay in the win column because of powerful additional factors like the pain of their own guilt, their fear of being caught, already having been caught badly, or other personal emotional issues. And that's not a criticism, in any respect. Just an opinion based on observation.

I am just trying to be honest here, not to bash anyone. I just do not buy the idea that most guys who get into a habit enjoying porn and having sex with themselves quit mainly because they want to 'be good'. So I am with you on this, Guy.

But you do want to be clean, or you would not be here.

So. If you are a guy (sorry!) who is already hating that he is habitually enjoying sweet porn and sex with himself and going crazy cuz he wished he'd [b]just stop already!! Ahhh!![/b]....then you are in good company.

And I agree: it won't do, at all, to just speak of 'G-d' with a person who may be plenty religious and plenty good, but has little practical emotional room for G-d as a real priority in his mind. And that's most of us normal and abnormal people! The endless struggle gets framed in that familiar old romantic preoccupation with 'goodness', 'beating the yetzer hora', or 'shmiras haBris'....eww, we've been there before enough, no? And back again...and again...and again.

So, like Dr Watson wrote below: What are some first real steps you'd be willing to take in order to do things differently today?

And why do you want to stop? There are lots of good reasons to.

...or is stopping not really your point and instead, you really want to live differently?

Hope this is helpful.

- Dov

This struggle is just a symptom of a problem. It's pointless to cure a symptom while the problem still remains--at least the symptom provides a form of "relief", however temporary and short-lived it may be.

Solve the problem, though, and you'll be much happier.

For me, it's "do I want to live" or "do I want to have unsolved emotional problems and insecurities the rest of my life"? "Do I want to be happy", or "am I okay the way things are--and if so, why am I depressed a lot"?

I also like focusing on positive motivation too--the benefits of staying clean.

I have had this feeling for a very long time, it was especially hardest during my intense acting out days, where I literally felt that there is nothing on the other side, and no one is listening, maybe He was there but he certainly made sure I wouldn't know about it, i

It even got to a point where I invented my own religion, because god didn't make any sense to me,

Soon after I realized how foolish that was (the inventing religion bit) but I came from a deep felt feeling that THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING OUT THERE OR IN HERE FOR ME TO CARE ABOUT!!!!!!!

And as some mentioned action helps, and I get flashes of meaning, but the stonewall keeps staring me in the face,
I think that perhaps I tricked myself to believe that there is nothing to work towards so that I won't have to work, because I am an addict and I am sick and I don't want to work to get better, because it feels so much better to act out, and then I remember how depressed it makes me, that I don't even enjoy it anymore, and the look of pain on my wife's face when she found out, and the utter lowness I feel,
But then I trigger, and I am back to lusting and its a long cycle and to he'll with it,

But I am feeling better with the little work I have been doing and I know that talking to my wife about it, being honest about it is making my relationship with her better, and for right now that is important to me,

Maybe one day I will get to feel some great light descend upon me and fill me with a religious glow, or whatever,

When I see that my wife is beginning to trust me more, for me that's a religious revelation, in those moments I feel there is something more, and that all my prayers are being listened to, and that when I asked Him to help me he answered by letting my wife catch me,

I heard Rabbi Nachman said that he would feel times when he felt that Hashem wasn't there, if anyone on the forum can enlighten us as to how he worked that out, that would be great!

Dear 'afreshstart39',

1- Wow, thanks for that post. I think you are so fortunate that you appreciate the 'little things'. The realization that it is the small but real steps in the right direction that count the most right now - that is precious and powerful. And personally, I think the hopes for a religious revelation, the peace of Rebbe Nachman, or a 'glow' are noble - but the tendency is as unfortunate as it is typical for us addicts, especially frum ones (and I am not assuming you are an addict, that I do not know and is your business, not mine). The extremes are attractive to us, and that often make the sweet things you describe seem cheap - the flashes of meaning that I relate to so much especially in the early recovery years, the simple beauty of living honestly with your own wife, the appreciation of some mental and emotional stability. The explosive revelation we experience in porn and masturbation blows these things away - even though the kol d'momah dakah of these precious real things is so much more than our porn's shocking blast of excitement. The difference is like a crashing wave vs a slow, quiet, wide and deep river moving. Crashing waves are the hearts of the rosho that the psukim describe as a 'yam nigrash' - a swirling, smashing sea never at rest. And kedusha is often described as flowing silently but unstoppably as a 'nachal'. That's the way it is.

2- I relate, too, with your creating a religion in addiction. I created one, too: worship the sexy woman. Think about it, you may see you were and perhaps still are - a member of that religion together with the one you tried to make to help stop the habit and together with yiddishkeit, too.

The religion of a lusting man has all the elements of any other one: Faith (bitachon), Mesiras nefesh (sacrifice), tzniyus (privacy), and t'midiyus (consistency). Our porn use and masturbation use was pretty predictable, for some of us it was even daily or more often, some weekly or monthly, whatever - it was regular. As so many guys say, "I can only go three weeks, every time I fall around then! Aye!" It's like the korban tomid and the idea of makom kavuah - tmidiyus demonstrates religious conviction. Schmutz fantasy is precious to us and we just do not live without it. Yes, we put our blanket down for a while staring at it on the floor and saying we "send it away and don't need it! Feh!"...but then we pick it up again in desperation when the air starts to get thin again...

We also keep this very, very private. Like the silent shmoneh esrei - the real power of it is in that privatest of moments with not a soul around. Just us with our penises and our porn 'getting busy'. In true avodah, the ikkar of the year is the Cohen gadol going lifnai v'lifnim, too. Not a soul there, not even malochim, to share that moment of deveikus and communication. Just Him and G-d's Presence. And all true greatness is totally private - gadlus is ruined when everyone knows about it, Rashi says, for it is in the heart between you and your G-d. Sex addicts hide the porn use - not only because we don't want to get caught - but because it would ruin the moment...and it does. That cannot be allowed. If we get caught we might not be able to continue doing it! It's too precious and needs to be protected with 'privacy', like gan na'ul, doesn't it?

We also sacrificed so much for it. The time, the energy, mental emotional and spiritual energy. Often we were like dishrags with all the tension of hiding and lying and the secret adventure of it all. Many of us spent a great deal of money, too. True Mesiras nefesh.

And we did all those things because we had a deep Faith in porn's ability to give. We trusted in it, and most of us are having a terrible time losing any of that trust - even when it causes us so much suffering, too! We are so patient with our god, no? Overlooking it's sins against us. We don't 'test' this god too badly, for look how pretty it is! Do we give that much patience to Hashem? Rarely.

Nu. So what do we expect? To change overnight? Most of us do not leave hashem, really - instead we do a form of sheetoof - we keep both Him, and our demigoddess. We try to make a pshorah - we call that pshorah 'Teshuvah' when things get really bad. But we are really pos'chim al shtei has'ipim. Like Eliyahu's yidden, we could not let go of Ba'al, but we still wanted Hashem. NU. It is indeed a bitter struggle.

But at least we can be better than those Jews of Eliyahu - we can openly talk about it with other safe people. Boruch Hashem that He is so very patient with us!

Sorry for the long post again.

- Dov

Thank you all.
You have given me a lot to think about.

I had an interesting thought the other day,

Chazal uprooted the desire for avodah zarah because it was to difficult to deal with, and then tried to uproot the sexual drive, and no eggs were laid, and they brought it back,

Why is sex associated with avodah zarah? There are a lot of other issues we don't know how to deal with, like kinah and kavod

I think it's like what dov said that we made our addiction into our own religion, and when I made up my own religion I. Was really trying to protect my religion of porn from the real truth of Hashem

I think that avodah Zara has come back into the world in today's generation, chazal lamented the loss of being able to work on such a Nisayon when they saw the form of a lion rising from the aron

We got that Nisayon back, in the form of our addiction

Like dov said, that for addicts, the addiction becomes our worship and we treat it with all the necessary devotions a religion requires

Maybe chazal were trying to teach us something when they mentioned the sex drive alongside removing the desire for avodah Zara

Lust brought it all back for us,

When we think about bowing down to stone we think its ridiculous, but a non-addict also thinks that the addict who treasures his addiction, and "bows down to his computer" is also just as ridiculous, but I know that it is precious to me, and I can't explain that to anyone who never felt that, as king menashe explained to I think rebbi Meir that he would have cut off his hem to run faster, rebbi Meir still didn't understand the power of it, but appreciated that for king menashe it was a crazy pull,

Rav tatz explained that the essence of all avodah Zara is the worship of self, and the self absorption one has which is channeled by the avodah Zara, do anything one wants to do,

I remember dov writing that addiction works the same way,

Our addiction is our avodah Zara, and I feel what it feels like to be stuck in something so ridiculous, but so special to me, so crazily precious to me, so gloriously decadent, and oh how I have honored my goddesses! Oh how I have given my life to them!

And then I have these small moments as I am doing the work, and I see a flash of truth, and I hope that I can keep making those small moments, its my only line in to reality

I have to run, I rambled enough already, I think there may also be a connection to the eigel but for a different time

Thank you dov and thank you guy for initiating this thought process