davidngu613 wrote:


when i first joined i was falling around every two weeks. what kept me going was the fact that i was getting up faster and tiny step by tiny step i was taking actions in the right direction. it really is one day or one hour or one minute at a time. my thought is that it was/is harder for me because now im actually trying for real to do something about my problem. the Y"H sees that im taking this seriously so he's stepping up his game as well.

I think I'm finally getting somewhere, guys. Actually, I was too embarrassed to admit it yesterday but I had a second fall soon after the first- I seem to be doing that a lot lately, and the thought process that leads to it is usually something along the lines of "this day is already shot anyway, so I may as well stretch the good time as long as possible." That second fall jolted me out of my gloomy thoughts and really made me think yet again about what needs changing in my approach. I realized a couple of things: first, that my shmiras machshavo (is that how you say it?) had been practically nonexistent. When I felt a bad thought encroaching on me, I really didn't have a plan about how to battle it. I would just let it take its course: if I managed to shoo it away in time, great; if not, it eventually escalated and brought me to the point when I literally, PHYSICALLY could not stop myself from....
I'm adopting a three fold plan about how to guard my thoughts. The first line of defense is right when I see the thought looming on the horizon. This is the step where its still at the fringes of my consciousness and not even completely formulated. At this moment, I need to unequivocally and categorically tell the yetzer: "I kind of don't have time for you right now... Can we reschedule for a different time?" Techniques that I've seen around here and used with success are the "blow it up" method (imagine a huge explosion when you see the lustful thought) and the stop sign.
The second line of defense comes into play when the thought has already taken hold of me and I feel that incredible and complete powerlessness in the face of lust (you all know what I'm talking about). At this point, its time to bring Hashem into the struggle and ask him to please take my lust from me; that so overwhelming a desire simply can't be fought by mere flesh and blood and the only He can help me; I say this private tefillah intently for a few moments and the thought disappears.
The last line of defense before the fall, rachmana litzlan, which I haven't had the need to rely on yet, B'H, is the Taphsic Method. We'll see how that goes when I get there.
Another thing I realized is that its important to zero in and focus on my particular challenges- having a basic outline of what needs to be done isn't going to be enough. Knowing yourself and what triggers you, what EXACTLY you have issues with is very important. For example, I realized that during the week I feel much less challenged than during the weekends at home which are torture. I know that what I'm saying sounds kind of obvious, but its really amazing how even the most obvious thing can become impossible to even realize, let alone implement, until you concretize and formally verbalize the idea. Now my goal, my approach is more fine tuned, more sophisticated than before- I know that I don't have to sweat as much during the week, and that the bulk of my efforts need to be put into occupying my time and thoughts and activities during the weekend.
At any rate, these are my thoughts... any ideas?
Like they say, one day at a time.

David

Bravo!!
Sounds like a great plan!
How has Shemiras Einayim been? and i don't mean just looking at p*** or even untznius women, i mean women in general (even your wife).
AlexEliezer has opened my eyes (no pun intended) to this extremely important tool. We don't even realize how much lust we take in by every glance, and we have to try to minimize it as much as possible!!
Hatzlacha in finding things to keep you occupied on the weekends, it is a geheinom for me too!

Hey guys I'm back- I know its been a long stretch and a lot has happened since I last posted. Basically, i had a very important math exam that I needed to finally get through, and I couldnt risk taking time off from it to do much else.
First and foremost I have to admit that I don't know exactly how many times I've fallen since I last posted, just that it was between 3 and 4 times for sure. I know now that its vey important to share this kind of information and to to be open and honest with the chevra about everything thats going on with me. In this interim period, I also had my longest clean stretch in a while...6 days:cheer: I have to say that I'm very pleased with what I've finally discovered to be the very simple solution to why I couldn't seem to make it for very long ever since joining this sight. I realized that I had VERY EASY access to the Internet that was too much for me literally every time. No matter how much I talked it through with you guys, worked on my shmiras einayim and machshava, giving the lust to Hashem, trying to keep myself occupied, reading and thinking about the chizuk emails, it would all give way to the overwhelming lust. (In fact, the more I think about it lately, the more I appreciate JUST HOW POWERLESS I AM WHEN IT COMES TO THIS NISAYON! There is literally no resistance whatsoever when an immodest sight hits me a certin way- all the barriers come down and me along with them.) There was something very basic and elemental missing in my battle plans and I realized that what I needed as simple as the equivalent of a filter. Now since the Internet capable device in question is actually my mothers old iphone which she never uses, I obviously cant get a filter on it. What I could do, however, was to modify my original plan to make Taphsic shvuous into one where I make plain ol' regular shvous. When I reviewed the Taphsic system again, I realized that it simply doesnt adress the particular nature and circumstances of my nisayon. Wait my sister is here gotta go

You can only hold your breath underwater for so long--but if you aren't underwater, you don't have to hold your breath!

I also have had an iPhone, there's an (imperfect) way to filter it:

Have someone set a restrictions passcode and not tell you what it is; have them restrict Installing apps, Safari, and App Store. That way, you can't download an internet browser on your computer and have it transfer to your iPhone. Before you do this, install k9 or Mobicip (which probably isn't worth the $4.99).

Make sure that you don't have the Facebook app installed, since that app has a built-in web-browser on it.

Without going into too many details about my experience circumventing filters (believe me--there have been times where I've sat there for like an hour and a half at night, in bed, trying to defeat the filter)--I would say that an Android with k9 is a much better device to have than any iDevices.

For me, it's been hard, but I've realized that I depend on portable electronic devices and internet way too much when I'm bored, and I'm trying to wean myself off of using them. You will absolutely think that "no way I can go without my iPhone" (as I have thought on so many occasions); you might also rationalize that "well, I have iTalmud, iMishna, Artscroll Talmud app, and I NEED my iPhone for Talmud Torah". I've made that mistake on many occasions as well.

But when I actually did an accounting of how often I used my Iphone for Torah, I found that it was very little:

Occasionally looking up a Gemara or Passuk; reading articles on www.vbm-torah.org; very seldom looking up a ramban; maybe once every 2nd month learning Mishnayos on it. There was one time that I was at a dinner party, and my iPod ran out of batteries--so I was stuck there, doing nothing, no learning. The iPod is good for situations like that.

Is that benefit enough to justify the huge amount of bittul zman and shmutz that you leave yourself vulnerable too with your iDevices?

It's been a huge struggle for me, but I'm trying to cut down on my internet use.

If you don't want to get rid of the portable electronics (understandable; I just think it's funny that 15 years ago they wouldn't have dreamed of this stuff, and now I view it as indispensable), at least use a sort of Taphsic method:

No iPhone when alone in the house or not in a public place. No iPhone charging in my bedroom when I go to sleep--must be in the kitchen and turned off. If you are spending too much time on a news app, delete it--you can't reinstall it, so you won't have to worry.

As far as the restrictions passcode goes, you can get almost anyone to enter it (any friend or family member will gladly enter one even without knowing what it is they're doing): they will type a passcode, retype it, and then hand the phone to you. You select Apps 12+, turn off App Store, Safari, Installing Apps, and anything else you find relevant. Then press the home button, and everything is saved (unless you figure out the passcode).

There are only two disadvantages to this (relatively trivial): You can't install new apps that might be useful, and you can't install updates to existing apps. A small price to pay--if it's really urgent, try it for a month (since nothing really huge will come along in a month).

Still, I would strongly consider an android device, since k9 is basically rock solid.


But it sounds like you're doing awesome! Kol hakavod! 6 days--geshmack!

Coincidentally, I'm also taking exams right now, my next one is Friday.

Have a great Shavuos! We should chat sometime, or you should take a peek at our Tcholent Group page.

Also, I know exams are stressful--what happens to me is I procrastinate a lot (like I'm doing now) while worrying about them. The moral:

Set aside a fixed amount of time to study for the material, then do something else that you enjoy without feeling guilty. Then get back to studying. Don't feel any stress when you aren't studying.

Otherwise, you spend the whole day in a zone of procrastination/feeling guilty while you read Yahoo Sports.

Have a good Shavuos!

Thanks CC MAN. I may need a new phone soon and mine is still dumb. Not sure what my options are when I need a new one. Do they still make the dumb kind? It sounds like you have done your research.

I've done my research on iPhones--in general, I think Android is better, for the reason that everything directs itself through a single internet. Thus, on Android there's no "youTube app", "firefox app", or "facebook app that can access the internet"--instead, once you install k9, ALL internet is directed through k9. Which isn't the case on the iPhone--you can turn off Safari, but you could still have youtube app or other things installed. (BTW, make sure to disable youtube as well on the restrictions app). There isn't one app that you can assign to be in charge of all internet.


And now for the longest post I've ever made (and maybe the longest post in the history of the forum: 3 pages in microsoft word)--I'm sorry it's so long, but I read through your earlier posts item by item and inserted my comments. I hope it's helpful at least:

Im just getting caught up on your earlier posts, and I have several ideas that are kind of a running commentary as I read through your earlier posts. They are in order, so bear in mind which one’s I’m responding too.

I think this might be the longest single post in the history of GYE lol. Hope I’m coherent enough and I hope it helps. This is stuff that I have gathered from my time here, but I don’t know if it’s official or correct.

Shmiras Einayim Yesod. Often if we don’t pay attention to shmiras einayim (it’s been difficult for me, I’ve gone to a public school), we think that these urges come out of nowhere, but they are secretly being fed the whole day. We’re fighting lust, not the symptom (but it sounds like you’ve been reading a lot, so you probably know that already).

For me, I’ve tried getting out of the house—like I said, rationalizing that “I have to study” or have work to do doesn’t mean that we need to spend the whole day at home on a computer “working” while we have other tabs open on Sports News, CNN, etc. So I’m trying to say “from here until here I’ll study, the next 3 or 4 hours I’ll take time off”.

Also, I used to have cheshbonos about becoming a talmid chochom, fulfilling my dreams, etc: in my humble opinion, I think it’s best to leave the CONSEQUENCES up to Hashem. We can control the effort we put in, but what happens is up to Hashem. Right now, I’m just going to focus on doing what I need to for TODAY, without worrying about the Rambam’s idea about you have to be in the same situation to do Teshuva, or Sha’arei Teshuva, etc. I’ll worry about that in a few years.

What makes you think you aren’t an “eved Hashem” already? It’s the first Mishnah Berurah (I was going through it recently): that “Kol hanikra bishmi v’lichvodi b’rativ”: Hashem created the world for us to serve Him. R. Yochanan ben Zakai in Pirkei Avos: Im lamadta Torah Harbeh, Al tachazik tova l’atzmecha, KI LECHACH NOTZARTA. Whether we like it or not—whether we even serve hashem or not—we are avdei Hashem, since that’s what he created the world for. It’s our responsibility to do our duties as avdei Hashem, but we are all created as avdei Hashem. That’s my opinion—I don’t know if that’s correct or not.


Another big thing that I’ve found is that we focus on the ADDICTION too much, and not the LIVING part of it. I used to spend lots of time drawing up elaborate fences, attitude ideas, shmiras einayim, stuff, etc, and I think I’ve realized a few things:

#1, by focusing on it a lot mimeila you’re giving credence to the Y”H. More importantly:
#2 The whole point of this isn’t to cure the symptom of m* or even lust, but instead LIVING. It’s a long process, but life doesn’t consist of an endless battle over “to fall or not to fall is the question”. We need to start living, learning, and in some cases (mine included) dealing with certain problems that might have triggered it in the first place.

Sometimes when I’m at home all day, it becomes an endless struggle; I try going and playing basketball, shopping, or doing something to get out of the house so that I’m actually living, and life isn’t an endless struggle.

Of course, it is a huge struggle—tremendous struggle! That was AWESOME—all capital letters-tremendous-I-don’t-have-the-adjectives-to-describe-how-AWESOME and how much courage it took for you to start tackling the problem and telling your father. (That’s much farther than where I am—I couldn’t dream of telling either of my parents, a rebbe, a friend, anyone.)



(Sorry I’m reading through all of your previous posts all at once).

About the 90 days: it’s not a goal, but just a tool some people find helpful. As mentioned, if we go out and really LIVE one day at a time, that’s the ultimate goal. As with any other area, all growth is one day at a time.

“The first week or so after a fall is usually ok, though no guarantees”: only worry about today, not about “patterns”, or what has happened in the past or what will happen in the future. Since you are living in the present, you can only worry about and control what you do in the present. This is another mahalach to answering your question about 90 days: why worry about day 90? Just worry about where you are, and you’ll take it one day at a time—B”H you’ll reach 90 days, and then you can worry about it. (You have me beat there too—I’ve never reached 90 days! My best was 55 days, and that was mostly because of a 6-week summer learning program.)

DON’T use an unfiltered computer unless someone else is with you in the house, and is in a position to see what you are doing. (Don’t worry—you could still use GYE, they probably won’t see what you’re doing or even try paying enough attention to see. If you’re really worried, have a few tabs open.)

Congrats for dealing with this (like me) early on before it becomes a full-blown, lifestyle-type problem. Personally, I don’t think I need the twelve steps (i.e. I’m not addicted enough), but from what you said, it’s possible that you’re more addicted than me (or it’s also possible that over your previous 90 day period, you were fighting a battle with no weapons—you didn’t know about shmiras einayim, etc.)


If you wear glasses, taking them off when walking is a lifesaver—trust me, no one cares, and you can just say “I’m resting my eyes”. You don’t miss anything important either (unless you’re trying to catch a bus or something and need to see which station it is).

For me, I try moving on. If I had a failure 5 seconds ago—well, I’m living RIGHT NOW, so I can’t control that. Time to forget about it, stop guilting myself, and do everything I can RIGHT NOW.

The “friends” problem for me is difficult—I’m in a public school, with few religious friends to relate to. (Actually, I’m graduating in a little while, so that’ll be behind me.) In hindsight, I think a lot of my m* problems grew out of not having anyone to talk to / feeling isolated, so I would disagree that the friend situation is “a totally separate parsha”.

For me, in the “heat of the moment”, when the tsunami is about to strike, it’s “run like hell”. I try to get out of the house immediately. However, part of my problem is the Y”H convinces you that falling isn’t so bad, that being struck by a tsunami is okay and isn’t so bad.

Surrendering is very difficult, I know. I personally am looking for ways to strengthen my emunah.

“Every time I feel closer to giving up... All I want is to be able to get to two weeks- that would mean Im at least improving.”

Of course you’re improving! If someone is truly happy, are they constantly looking over their shoulder saying “oh yeah, I’m happy now! I’m now happy!” Of course not! True, while they are thankful for what they have, they are just HAPPY without verifying it.

You’re recovering right now, whether you know it or not. A fall doesn’t meant that you’ve lost any of your previous progress. If you think about it, let’s take myself as an example: I’ve fallen probably at least a 1,000 times in my life (from the 6th grade until now; probably more than that). So now I am in recovery. Is Chachaman with 1,001 falls in recovery qualitatively any different than the Chachaman with 1,000 falls in recovery? I don’t think so. Not that I am making light of the severity of a fall; chas v’chalilah. I’m saying that AFTER THE FACT, if you really think about it you are still making progress, and one more fall hasn’t set you back to the bottom of the ladder.

It’s very good (it sounds kind of funny saying that it’s “good” lol) that you’ve hit bottom; I don’t think I have yet. Preserve that feeling and remember it—it will give you a very solid reason to KOT when the going is rough.

Beautiful on the davening! Again, I’ve had this problem since a long time; I’ve always been thinking “well, I’d better do Teshuvah while I’m at public school to fulfill what the Rambam says”. Look at me now: current streak is 9 days, about to graduate high school.

The CHESHBONOS are counter-productive. Take it one day at a time. It’s very tempting to say “I’ll go into Yeshiva recovered”, but these issues quite honestly take more than a few months to recover from. It’s ingrained life-and-emotional issues (at least it was for me). To improve in LIVING, getting closer to Hashem, is a slow process.

I’ve been on this site a year-and-a-half, and I’m still struggling. So don’t give up; KOT.

Very true: if you’ve made it 90 days once, you can do it again! How? By taking it 1 day at a time.

“When is Hashem finally going to have Rachmanus on me, and let me beat this nisayon?” Answer: when you let Him have Rachmanus on you and let Him, not you, beat the nisayon.

True: everyone here is warriors, but that’s another good point. As Dov says frequently, he’s not worrying about being a tzaddik or seeking recognition from anyone. He doesn’t care what Lav suicide is; he doesn’t commit suicide for obvious reasons, but doesn’t expect fame and acclaim for not committing suicide.

“I'm a bit wary of the Taphsic shvuous. They seem to be for people who need a bit of help controlling themselves. It doesn't address the emotional issues that are often the root of the problem. Based on what you have posted, I'm not sure Taphsic will help that much.”

I agree. They’re one tool, but not THE tool.



Anyway, sorry for such a long post, but good luck! It seems like (at least to me) that the two of us would probably have a lot in common in real life.

oops srry about the abrupt ending there- I use my sister's laptop as a guest to post on GYE since it has controlled internet acccess which doesn't let you watch videos. She came home from shopping and I had to run.
Anyway, as I was saying, I've sharpened the way I view my addiction and have realized that, believe it or not, its bred more by restlessnes, boredom, and being overwhelmed than actual arousal. I never thought about the problem as a coping technique, a way to deal with the vagaries and dissappointments of life, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that that's precisely what it is.

As a result, the feeling of restlessness and boredom which breeds that incontrollable pull to my drug of choice is almost like being trapped in a bubble. There are certain kinds of situations that I find myself in (like being at home alone during the day, even if I have things to do) that create almost like this blanket of general uneasiness, this quasi-dread of knowing that incredible excitement and pleasure is just a couple taps away (iphone). That powerful knowledge, combined with my habituation towards abusing it, combined with a resultant lowering of interest in any other activity (why would I want to do calculus when I could do other things...) makes it impossible to resist AND makes the Taphsic shvuous kind of ineffective.
Its very nice that I can distract myself with something else before falling, but unfortunately that other activity isn't going to make the above described sensation pass. Its not like I'm hit by this wave of lust and if I just distract myslf for 10 minutes it'll go away and everything will be fine; no, that pervasive environment, that heavy aura hanging over the house, will be there to tempt me in the exact same way when I return from said activity.
What I need is something broader, something without loopholes, like a regular shvua.

davidngu613 wrote:

Powerful realization! I can totally relate. I know that feeling exactly.

I'm not sure that "a regular shevua" is the answer though.

I think that for me the problem most of the time isn't arousal too much either, just boredom or knowing how much excitement and pleasure are a few taps away.
What i use the taphsic/kabalos for are not to actually hold me back from falling.The thing i do use them for is to stop me from getting into a situation that i might fall in.For example i realized that i generally fell later at night on an unfiltered laptop (even though iv'e found loopholes in filters, it's easier for me to control myself on a filtered computer, maybe because it's more than a few clicks away).
So what i did was make kabbalos to keep me away from that situation, a kabbalah not to be online past a certain time and not to use an unfiltered computer for p*** or i have a knas.
So maybe what you should do (in addition to the very good advice above) is make some kabbalos/shavuos not to use unfiltered internet in your room or somewhere that you can fall.Also if the distractions aren't helping maybe you should make a knas that gives a bit of a pinch in order to motivate yourself to leave the place (your room or empty house etc.) that's tempting you.

hope this helps, you're really doing great,
hatzlacha
KOT and KUTGW

Chachaman: Thanks for all of the advice on filters and smartphone tips- at the moment, however, I B'H dont find that my Blackberry gives me any trouble at all. Thank you for all of the good advice in your second post as well. I try not to make cheshbonos anymore and do my best to LIVE by learning, exercising, and getting out of the house.
gibbor: I agree with you 100 percent. Shvuous aren't the answer. But they're the equivalent of a filter for me. There's no way I could get a filter for my mother's old iphone bc she would find out eventually. From the very start I intended for the shvuous only to give me some breathing room so that I can actually heal in peace on this website.
inastruggle: What exactly is the difference between a shvua and a kabbala? I do something very similar to what you do just... broader. My shvua is like this: "I swear in the name of Adona- that I will not search for, and subsequently view after searching, any arousing and/or inappropriate materials using an Internet capable device from now until Day X." How does that sound? What would the nafka minah be between using this system and one which prevents me from getting into a situation which tempts me in the first place- lmaaseh, both prevent me from doing it?

My father is a doctor, rabbosai, and he has this booklet of medicines and tips that he got when he first became a doctor. On the inside cover there's a quote which goes like this:"If its not working, dont do it." As obvious as this advice is, it still needed to be delivered to people as smart and educated as doctors. Clearly this is the kind of mistake ALL people make and one that I specifically have been making ever since I joined this site.

I should point out before moving on that I think I've made a lot of progress in the over a month since I joined the chevra. I understand my addiction, a lot better than I used- for one I understand that its nothing less than an addiction and a sickness, something I didnt get before. But its not enough simply to understand. From my own experience I can now confirm with certainty what Dov once said: you dont get healthy by UNDERSTANDING and LEARNING about your addiction, rather by living and doing.

When I go up to shamayim, Hashem is going to look at all of my deeds and he's going to see that for x number of years, I struggled with this addicition and he's going to ask me what I have to say for myself. I'll have a fantastic answer: I was addicted, G-D you know that; I couldnt control myself, I was an ill person; you know that better than anyone. And he'll say: you're right, you couldn't have possibly controlled yourself; you had no free choice every time an attack came. BUT IF YOU WERE ILL WHY DIDNT YOU TAKE MEDICATION?

I have a prescription, everyone, for my illness of addiction to m&p, and that is guardyoureyes.com. Unfortunately, I haven't been sticking to my prescription very diligently. I've been coming and going, posting when I'm feeling down, trying all sorts of different things sporadically and impulsively- I haven't adopted for myself any rigorous system. I tried the shvuous and they worked great. But as soon as they expired I fell almost immediately. I lied to myself and everone here. I claimed that I was using the shvuous just as a way to let the actual healing process start but I did no such thing. The truth is that I basically come and go around here, I'm a visitor, not a real participant. A real participant would've signed up for a 12 step phone conference, would've maintained a constant connection with the healing process, instead of just crying for help everytime something went wrong. I fallen twice in the past 10 days, giving me two streaks of 4 days each. Those 4 days felt great but they were generated by a quick fix, and shvua tht I had no choice but to observe. I want to start healing for real, and for that I need to plug into an already existing system instead of trying to create my own.
Can anyone please give me advice about which phone group to join and when and how to go about managing this in real life? I dont know how I'm going to hide this form my parents. Also I know that all the groups are in the middle of their programs. Can I still join anyway?

For now, just pick one that fits into your schedule and see if you like it. I think you can join most of them in the middle.

See here guardyoureyes.com/tools/calls

Just a question--if you are using your mother's old iPhone, then you don't have a filter, do you?

In my experience, kabbalos are saying "I will not use my mother's iPhone when alone", "I will not use electronics after 9 o'clock", "I will take a walk every day at 6:00PM", etc. Of course, you renew them every week. These type of kabbalos have other benefits.

In my opinion, if a shevua saying "I will not fall" was effective, then no one here would have a problem, because we should all be able to say "I make a shevua I will not fall in the next week", and keep on renewing that. If it works for you, though, do whatever works! (I have a problem of not exactly keeping all of my nedarim, which is very bad.)