newaction wrote:

אל תאמין בעצמך עד יום מותך שהרי יוחנן כ"ג שמש בכהונה גדולה שמנים שנה ולבסוף נעשה צדוקי

Yes Bigmoish thanks for that . that is part of the steps אל תאמין is powerlessness.

Cordnoy i agree with the 3 points you said no problem with that . you dont like the word formula change it . But the authors of the Big Book were very clear at that. One example is chapter 5 "Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program... You have heard a different opinion ? may be so . But the big book says it in many instances.

L'maisah, that is thinking wayyyy to far in advance! Remember one day at a time?

I am not disregarding the 90 day chart as something to jumpstart us, but i don't know how much it actually helps us recover in itself. I think it may bring one to the recovery process. But as always, whatever helps you! I just think we are looking at too big of a picture when we do the 90 day chart and it gives a person a false notion of success and even of true recovery because true recovery is one day at a time!

Lavi you make good points and i think the point I do not like is this one:


I hate fighting or resistance or anything to do with war because it shows that I am battling not Him. I can not win. I can not fight. I am truly powerless. Does that mean that i surrender, no but i surrender any notion of MeI[/i] cant dig out for my self. Only Hashem can. Its not a war in my mind. In fact, i am stepping out of the ring. I merely do my hishtadlus and then Hashem saves me. For me to do anything to try to win, clearly goes against the first step as i am showing i am not powerless.

Some will then ask so what do you do when you see an attractive girl? Don't you have that inner struggle??? And I yes but i take a deep breath to alleviate this and try to make a proper decision...to turn it to Hashem. I don't fight! I don't say," I will not look, I am not going to lose to lust, NEVER!" I do not see recovery as a fight, does it ever say in the 12 steps or in SA that we need to sharpen our swords?

In true recovery, i do not think white knuckling has a place. It may lead to true recovery but its pretty dangerous stuff. It means we are on rocky ground and waiting for a fall to occur which it usually does occur at some point.

I really don't like the 90 day chart because it distracts one from "one day at a time" from living in the present. I don't like looking at the big picture in recovery. Its more daunting than motivating for me. Its better that we live in the present, than die for the future. I have at times truly lived in the presence and it is beautiful. Completely concentrating on the NOW, knowing everything will be just right! Its so peaceful and liberating!

i have a feeling we have discussed/argued this point before.
and i do respect your opinion.
i guess i just feel that fighting has it's part in recovery.
i do admit from my own experience, that one needs MUCH more than fighting; however i think that fighting has it's place.

Lavi, by the way, its nice to see you!!! Please drop by more often!

Just checking in. I can't really speak for the addicts out there, but I can speak about what worked for me.
When I had just joined GYE, the enthusiasm of the 90 day chart was a big help. I remember specifically that there were times that the goal of 90 days was all that stopped me from resorting to porn and acting out. (Separately and together)

On a recent business trip, I was going through a very difficult period of lusting (which might have been a bit evident from my thread). There were many instances that I felt that there is no way I am going to be able to make it through the week. When the concept of one day at a time passed through my mind, I told myself "I can definitely make it through today. Let's see what tomorrow brings" And that thought process repeated itself every day until the week was over.

So yes for some there is benefit to the ninety day chart and the one day at a time concept. And to me, there was no contradiction. Two concepts for two different times.

Una,

but like you wrote, and like we discussed ; there is a good chance that you are not an addict.

b'hatzlachah

I like girls, i like to masturbate, i like to watch porn, i like to fantasize about girls, even my future wife, I like to stare at girls on the street. I like to watch movies and TV shows especially when attractive girls appear on the screen. Also, I really like me (but don't worry I'm not selfish ) and i hate when others bug me. I hate when the world doesn't go according to how i want it to go. I hate myself when i mess up so I love to admonish myself to straighten myself so I go back on the right path.

I felt i should be honest. I think honesty is key for recovery. I have to be honest with my self. Earlier on, when i first joined GYE, I saw an idea where we have to hate lust and porn and all of the junk that we do. The only problem is that I didn't really hate it (because i liked to do it) and also it made me hate myself more which made me lust more. Talk about a cycle! So i thought i should be honest and say the above and it feels good. I lie so much and now i am starting to be more honest. When i made some mistakes this week and the past week, i called up some of my friends, including my mentor, and told them the mistakes i made. I think honesty is incredibly powerful because i always fool myself. I always say: "girls will help me" or "its not really that bad" but when i open up to someone else it helps me realize how stupid I am and how dishonest i have made myself. So by me being on honest with another person, it helps me become more honest. And it feels sooo good.

And yes this means that I don't trust myself. I don't. I know that I could and i even wanted to before put cameras in places where cameras should never be put (remember the Rabbi and the mikvah case that shocked us all). Its funny that we get surprised at our dishonesty and at how long we fall. Im not surprised. Its true. I could fall hard. I could go to the depths of the ocean in any moment. I can not be complacent. But thats ok because think honesty will help me.

One more thing: in a recent chizzuk email it said how we are stuck in a rock and a hard place. I forget what the exact context was but that is exactly how i feel. I want to lust so badly. I want to look at girls, look at porn and masturbate but it just doesn't cut it! It doesn't give me the true satisfaction that i really want and need. Its quite funny: I want it but I don't want it! What a contradiction! So I just have to be honest with myself and pick what is best for me. What is the correct decision to be made at this moment? Should i click play or should i message a GYE friend?

Since you ask...May I put in my bit? When I have the urge, I find it really helpful to "message a GYE friend" or at least get onto the site.

Sure it feels good to masturbate etc. But it must feel bad too, at least afterwards, or there wouldn't be GYE and other such organizations. I believe the SPEED of "payoff" is important. Yes it would feel great for me to make it through a whole (additional) day clean...but that would take 24 hours!

Wonder what other people here use as "quick" payoffs. I really like the shot-of-inspiration feature on GYE. Many thanks to the inventors and managers.

umm what are you really asking?

Why does there have to be a payoff? When i talk to a friend, I tell them that i really do want to watch or masturbate or lust. It hurts me to not pleasure myself. I want to. I don't really get why there has to be such a quick payoff. I usually see how wonderful my life is without lust and how terrible my life is with it. How it kills me. I don't know if that is such a quick payoff. It takes a while, in fact, to truly recovery and to truly feel the recovery. We should be careful because what is lust? Its immediate gratification. We must do it now. We should be careful that recovery doesn't turn into immediate gratification.

But i agree that reaching out is the kicker! Its a literally a lifesaver.

I believe that lust is the quick fix we've come to enjoy. It takes only a minute or two to get our high and pleasure. But the genuine pleasure that comes from recovery takes time. It can even be painful at first (withdrawal symptoms), but it's the real deal. We live in a generation where everything needs to be instant. Be it microwaves, smartphones, etc. our culture is one of lazy people who don't want to sweat a little. But no pain, no gain. Our struggles with our tayvos will take a lot of work and time. We'll have to turn completely to Hashem and pray like crazy, but the end goal is worth it. It may be a long journey, but every journey is made up of small steps.

Just somethin' from my experience:
I didn't go for the quick fix.
My falls were extended; drawn out over days, and sometimes weeks.
Durin' those times, I wasn't strugglin'; it was pure unadulterated bliss.

and yet, by far, the joy of recovery trumps that.
The serenity.
the peace.
Bein' content.
And this is when I'm just touchin' the surface of recovery.

b'hatzlachah

A lot of people might wonder why i like the "take a deep breath method" It seems kinda odd doesn't it? Like How does it help in recovery? And furthermore what exactly is the "dms deep breath method?" (I definitely just made that up ).

There are times, perhaps many, where our minds go crazy. A problem perpetuates our mind or our mind goes spinning after we see a girl walk on by or maybe an urge comes to watch a video that we try to fight. Whatever it is, our minds go crazy. I firmly believe that in these times we are unable to make rational decisions and are often prone to make very poor ones. This is why i advocate that a person should take a deep breath and calm himself down. NOW! I don't say that he should just do this as his mind could very well resort back to craziness. SO along with the deep breath he should ask Hashem for help and reach out to someone else. For me this has worked VERY well. Its like a timeout for ourselves where we take a step back from life and compose ourself. Its almost like Shabbos compared to the rest of the week. This calming deep breath also helps to reassure us that everything is going to be ok. Everything will work out and we will live on. We won't die because of whatever is tugging on our mind at this moment. That life is just right the way it is now!

On an other note my Rabbi, who does Kiruv for a lot of older folks, often says that many people ask: "how does God fit into my life? Meaning, in my sphere of life, how will God play a role? But my Rabbi says this is the wrong perspective. We should be asking: "How do I fit into God's plan?" The former is a self centred approach to life where I am the centre of the universe. The latter is a God centred universe. We are usually selfish and use ME as the focal point instead of Hashem. So how do I fit into Hashem's plan? To extend this thought, we usually look at other people like this. How do they fit into my life? What will they do for me? But really we have to ask What am I going to do for them? Especially, as we should be looking at life from God's focal point and not ours so we are not the only one that matters. We should stop being so selfish and turn our focus onto others! Now, how do you stop being so selfish? I will leave that to you to find out how