Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 20 Feb 2012 15:30:

There you go! now we all know exactly who you are...

It is sobering to hear how close to the edge we live, even when we may think and feel comfortable and secure in our sobriety.  Which is why, every day, every time, we don't give in to lust "just this once."

I respect your referring to this as a fall, especially since it did open things back up for you.  I'm not going to argue back and forth, but I would call this a bad slip (and a good lesson), and not a reason to reset the count.  At the end of the day you turned it around.  So the work you've done all these months was there for you.

But really, as you know, this is not a numbers game.  It's not about counts, about 90 or any other number.  It's about a commitment to a life without lust.

You're still my hero!

Alex

After i did it the first time, I was debating with myself whether I needed to report it. I know it's sort of a gray area of the rules. But when I did it a second time I knew I had to count it as a real fall, because if I didn't I would be Moreh Heter to keep on doing it, and a full fall would not be far behind.

Being "comfortable and secure in our sobriety" is the most dangerous thing. Then we lose focus on the struggle, and the barriers weaken...

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 20 Feb 2012 16:18:


I know.  But sometimes I just want to be normal. Oh well.  Fortunately we're frum.  So even if we weren't addicts we still shouldn't be looking, fantasizing, lusting.

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 20 Feb 2012 16:18:

Thanks for sharing Gevurah!  We need reminders each day as to how slippery the slope really is for us.  I wish you renewed strength powerlessness each day, one day at a time.

What I felt like 2 days ago...

What you're gonna feel like soon...

After reading a few Grapevine magazines I am so grateful that I am not an alcoholic. After reading some posts on the Forum I am so grateful that I am not a homosexual. I can go to the mikva and the beis medrash and I know I have no triggers. You guys are simply awesome - every day of sobriety is a double achievement/miracle.

Dear Gevura ShebYesod,

This is the first time I’m writing on your thread – wanted to thank for all your sharing, its powerful and helpful.  Before asking my question to you below, I first want give you 2 comments/yasher koachs:

1) Your particular challenge (i.e. men) is really tough – being in such a frequently triggering environment, that most of us in GYE find as safe haven, such as shul, beis medrash.  Kol hakoved that you are able to focus correctly in these places.

2) Your story is amazingly powerful against the ‘Born this Way’ thinking, which seems to be taking root even in some orthodox communities.
Would likely be very helpful if somehow the frum world could hear your story to strongly counteract the ‘Born this Way’ thinking.
Not a suggestion – just a thought.

But Gevura  – here is my really  question for you:
I have read all about your recent fall, and shared your emotional reaction of disappoint and frustration, and then your charge up to stronger push to get back on the horse and try again harder (does that mean surrender better?).  So what do you recommend for a guy like me – first time ever after  20 plus years – just tasting a bit of real sobriety (Baruch Hashem!) except maybe for some short lived inspiration around the Yomim Norayim.  How do I keep the inspiration up?  how do I fight human nature to drift down?  Others have posted “keep my recovery active” which makes TOTAL sense to me – but if you have any further insights – about what happened and how we could steer clear, I for one would greatly appreciate your insights.  Sorry if this question is too broad.

Thank you very much, and my prayers go out to you  in general, and in particular:  that your recent 'fall' gives you more lasting insights for complete success to not act out, and to become who you want to be. 

Humble, scared, and hopeful,
Have2changeNOW

Hi H₂CN!

First of all thanks for the chizuk and the warm wishes.

In truth the last few days have been pretty tough. i've been writing encouraging and upbeat stuff in an effort to be mechazek myself. But i think i'm going through a sort of "mini withrawal" now that i took a sip of the poison again. And the perfectionist in me is disappointed ("If you ruined your perfect sobriety at least have a perfect fall"  ??? ).

I had been getting kind of burnt out lately. For various reasons I will not be able to join an SA group or make personal or even phone contact with anyone. I am going to have to do this alone, with only my online friends for support. And i had been getting sort of down about that, and letting things slide. even my davening was losing it's intensity. And as you say on your thread, keeping recovery alive is so important.

So All I can say to you, and to me, is to work with all the tools that are available to you, as hard as you can. Daven hard. Extreme, conscious, shmiras einayim. Read and re-read the handbook, and whatever other seforim/books will inspire you. Keep in touch with the chevra, in whatever ways you can.
And dont get lazy and complacent. This is a fight that will never end, I am learning that the hard way.
I hope this helps you.

Gevura!

P.S. H₂CN is a molecule found in outer space, in interstellar clouds where new stars are formed. So it represents a new beginning and the shining potential that awaits. 

alexeliezer wrote on 20 Feb 2012 19:21:


Yeah, sometimes I feel like the flames are chasing me....  ??? :

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 20 Feb 2012 15:30:


TZ,

Tried it from home, didn't work either. maybe K9 is blocking it too? Maybe i need to open my filter to diagnose it?...And once it's open...maybe i can take a little peek at.....  :o :o :o :o :o

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I really shouldn't even joke like that. It's way past my bedtime and i'm punchy...

Hi again, 37.  I've not really been posting on here much recently, for various reasons (not bad ones).

One thought, from someone who can relate exactly to your predicament (see earlier posts).

You are doing this by yourself, which I think is insanely difficult, and shows a lack of desperation, but that's your choice.  To a great extent, I had to work through an identical (perhaps more hands-on) issue as yours.

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 22 Feb 2012 05:13:


You cannot do this by yourself.  Because your urge is stronger than you.  Yes, it is.  It really, really is.  You actually cannot "think" your way out of this.  Yes, you can change your situation, but an urge is beyond reason.  Reason with it, and it will twist you into knots.  Just read through the forum - anything can be justified, and even turned into some hideous parody of a Mitzva.  I know this - I do it all the time.

But you are not alone.  I can't speak for the 12-step program, or any other method, but I know what helped me (incidentally, with a frum psychiatrist as my real-life contact) when I was younger.  It consisted of not allowing the thought in, and battling with Hashem's help.  It took ages, until it became a subconscious reaction to stimulus.  You don't need to "blow it up" (that was my teenage brain), but you do need to leave it to Hashem, or dismiss it with His help.  At least, that worked for me.  I would always, ALWAYS say "Thank you Hashem" very quietly after He helped me to dismiss a thought (generally a male-leaning one). (Edited to add: I would also say "please, no" to Hashem when I felt the urge - I didn't put that in beforehand because it sounds so pitiful.  But I can't leave it out - not here.  I probably looked like an idiot sometimes, walking down the street, although I'm sure that I hid the event tolerably well.)

I don't know if you can do it without another real human being.  But I do know that you cannot do it alone.  Hashem is indeed with you in shul, in the street, in the mikva and in your bathroom.  Davening is about asking Him for what you need.  Ask Him for help whenever you need it.  It might not work for you, but He has never, ever let me down when I ask him sincerely and humbly.  It is only when my pride gets in the way and I forget that He is with me (I am ashamed to admit) that things go wrong for me.

Even if Shacharis is uninspiring for you, don't let that stop you from asking Him at the time of the "test" to remove the urge from your mind (coupled with your own effort/vessel for help).

For the record, I don't believe that I am cured, but rather every day I get slightly further and further away from that awful place.

Yossi,

I am desperate, but it's not my choice. For various reasons that's the way it has to be right now. It's hard and the loneliness hurts. But I have no choice.

But I do know that I am not alone. Hashem is with me, even when I don't feel Him. Even when I'm so miserable that I don't want to feel Him.

I actually do constantly ask Him to take away the thoughts when they come. I will walk down the streets mumbling "No no go away..." both as a prayer and as a reminder to myself to be strong. And when I am able to chase the thoughts away, or when I am able to hold myself back from looking when I see someone coming towards me, i say a silent "Thank you" to Him. I try to thank Him verbally for all the small things in life, like finding a parking spot the first time around the block, or having the opportunity to give someone a ride or do a favor.

Davening has always been one of the most important parts of my effort. In the good times i can concentrate and I beg and plead, and I thank Him for whatever success He has granted me so far. But I got complacent and lazy,and I lost the cheshek for it, I let myself slip badly, and now I feel like He doesn't want me around. So far away....
I'm thinking of your poem and I'm starting to cry...
I know that you wrote it in a moment of deep despair. You ended it that you just want to stay there...I feel the same way. But that's the YH throwing us into Atzvus. Crying hurts, but it means that we are feeling, that we are still alive. And there is still hope. He will pull me out of it, I just have to want to let Him.

Gevura! (AKA 37)

hi Gevura,

even though its a bit late i wanted to chime in about things. reading what you wrote about the fall and how you kept keep on (monster) trucking was a chizuk to me. thank you for sharing

re: doing it alone. that sounds so difficult. i don't know your circumstances and of course i cannot judge but it is so beneficial to have real people that you can email/chat/talk/meet with. the feeling of solitude magnifies whatever sounds the monsters make. if you have a friend along and the monsters sneeze you can turn to him and say "possums must be eating too much pepper in their apple sauce tonight" and laugh it off.
i guess the forum is doubly important for you.

keep on rocking and rolling
one of your big fans,
zs