Hi everyone! I'm really impressed with the oilam here and wish I had the same burning desire to get out of this as they do (hence the username). Quick synopsis of my situation: I struggled with inappropriate stuff online, on and off for the past 3 years. Around 3 months ago I had a his'oirrerus to quit and BH have not been any of those cursed sites since. Sounds amazing, right?.................. Wrong. After around 60 days of being clean, and being oimed b'nisayon, I had an extremely stressful day and found myself feeling those old urges extremely  strongly. But I had made up my mind that I was never going back to my old online haunts. To make a long story short, I ended up visiting a massage parlor for the first time in my life..BAM! (Don't really have a better way to express the feeling) Picked myself up and managed to make it 45 days clean....and once again BAM (Not as bad as 1st time, but bad). So here I am back on my feet..not giving up..but obviously not doing great.
Now I know from being around on the site that many of you will not like the following question, but here it is anyways: Is my current situation in which I am off of online stuff but dealing with in person stuff worse or better than my previous situation? Which of the two situations is worse: both from a religious standpoint and from an addiction standpoint? (Please do not respond with a mussar shmooze about "Who cares you pervert! They are both terrible!". I understand that they are both terrible. I'm just trying to understand my matzav vis a vis my battle with the YH, have I improved? Gotten worse? Or basically stayed the same?)

Hey HMT! Welcome to the forums, may it be with hatzlacha. 

All questions aside about the YH and what is worse religiously…I’d love it if you could please fill in at least some of the missing details. 

How did those 60 days of staying away from porn feel? Were you “white knuckling”? Meaning, were you working on having clarity that you are living a sober life worth living (for whatever reason you may have) a life where lust doesn’t control your thoughts and actions all day…or were you holding your breath under the water?

If you were holding your breath, it would possibly explain why you exploded, even in worse fashion. Many true addicts here have had the same experience. Stay away from one thing and fall flat on your face even uglier with the next…

There’s a lot to learn here about how you can move forward, whether with ”fighting the YH” method, or SA. Look around and you’ll find your place! 

Thank you YKW for your response. I'm not 100% sure what your two options are. When you say "holding your breath", do you mean that it felt hard? That I was having urges that I needed to control and deal with? Most definitely. A part of my issue is that in my mind I know that this is terrible but feel detached from feeling the terrible'ness of it. Obviously, the 1st step to recovery is wanting to change. I know all the reasons to change but am struggling to feel them. So, although it felt good to be sober during those 60 days, I can't say I was feeling this tremendous euphoria that I've seen people here describe when they are freed from their addiction. This is obviously a byproduct   of  my lack of feeling how terrible my situation was. (If a person knows he's a slave but doesn't feel like a slave, he's not going to feel freedom when his slavery ends.) When you say "working on having clarity that you are living a sober life" what do you mean? By reading up on the tremendous ma'ala of living a sober life and about how life with this addiction isn't a life? By repeating to myself "I am hereby sober!"? Please don't misunderstand me, I don't mean to be sarcastic. I just want to understand what you mean?

Good morning HMT!

Thank you for very clearly and beautifully articulating how you feel during the “off times”.

What I meant to point out is that there’s a difference between working some kind of modality of recovery, whatever that may be, (whether by constantly keeping yourself clear about your goals to fight the YH, The Battle of the Generation etc, connecting to others etc, or working the 12 steps) versus kind of floating forward, not feeling much motivation per se, which feels more like the issue is in dormancy, or “dry drunk” in SA terminology. 

Even if there’s no sense of euphoria (you’re absolutely correct, not everyone experiences that) there’s still a certain state of mind that comes along with recovery. I’m working on this too, and have come to recognize the difference. 

As part of the cycle of addiction, we can sometimes be clean for a little while by kind of floating forward. But it’s still eating away inside of you…and than, bam! It comes out again, and again, sometimes in even worse manifestations.

There’s clearly been a progression, going from online to in person. Progression of the risks you’re willing to take. So while you may not be more addicted than others who are doing only online stuff, nevertheless your risk tolerance is increasing, which can be quite alarming to say the least.

Reading Dov’s posts has helped me a ton in trying to understand what the difference is…perhaps you can benefit from this as well. Ever read his stuff?

halevaimetoo wrote on 21 Aug 2024 01:22:

You are fighting on a more dangerous front.   Keep fighting.  

halevaimetoo wrote on 21 Aug 2024 01:22:

This is a great question for a rabbi. I'm not capable of calculating if a massage parlor every x days is more favorable in G-d's eyes than porn every y days. It's also a good question for an addiction specialist. Dov's definition of an addiction is a pattern and a progression - which I think means you find yourself repeatedly acting out and in progressively worse ways. Other people have different definitions.

I think the only person really capable of answering the question though is . . . you.

Do you feel like a move to acting out in person is a new and more dangerous level that you have progressed to? Do you see yourself potentially doing other, even more dangerous, things you never would have imagined doing? Do you feel out of control and that you need to act out? Or do you think that it was truly somehow a one time thing that will never happen again (okay a two-time thing but surely it won't happen a third time)?

The good news is that you were also right and it's not such a relevant question. Where you are holding now is mostly only relevant to the extent it teaches you what tools you need to use to get to where you want to be. If this is a manifestation of addictive behavior the tool you might want to use is SA.

Welcome to a group where you can safely share your experiences, doubts, struggles and keep growing. I can totally relate to your question but I believe the approach is wrong... Instead of focusing on how you fell, and which way is better to fall, I would focus on how long you went without falling, 45 days is great! Let's work on 90 now. If you can do 45 you can do 90, it's the same process, the beginning is hard but once you get past that, which you've done already, and change certain habits, it gets easier... You got this! 

siyatta wrote on 21 Aug 2024 14:39:

Respectfully asking you to clarify... "45 days is great", when a person has twice crossed another red line in what may be a serious progression of his addiction, taking serious in-person risks......what is great about that and what does "you got this" mean?

Is this how you think he will get the help he needs?

Please don't mind my bluntness, I'm just an anonymous schmuck on the internet and I may need another coffee. 

youknowwho wrote on 21 Aug 2024 14:52:

Not so anonymous Voldy . Not so anonymous at all

halevaimetoo wrote on 21 Aug 2024 01:22:

I'd say it depends.

P.S. "Bam" was expressed perfectly, no need to apologize for it.

Thank you everyone for your input. I definitely appreciate the point made by YKW and vekham that I have obviously progressed downward with regard to my risk tolerance, which as was said- should be alarming. (similar to what I said in my 1st response to YKW, I know that it should be alarming but need to really internalize it to become genuinely alarmed) I think I have to think that point over a lot and mabey from there I will be able to really feel how bad my situation is and what it can deteriorate into, if I don't put some serious thought into the modality that I can use to recover. At the same time, I know from past experience that I need to balance those "scare tactic" thoughts about my situation, with clarity about my potential in order not to fall into the trap of yiush due to what I have already done. Meaning, I need to analyze the past in order to really build up my desire to extricate myself  and work on the modality of recovery that will work, but at the same time I can't dwell on the past as it will bring me to yiush..not sure I being clear? Thank you Siyatta for your words of chizuk.
I would like to read Dov's stuff. I've read so much about him and seen him quoted all over. Is there a place where they are melaket all his stuff?

halevaimetoo wrote on 21 Aug 2024 19:13:

The "Dov Quotes" thread

It's not all his stuff (he wrote a lot when he was posting) but it's a nice chunk.

You can also check out some of his recordings. I'm a big fan of the 12 step workshops linked in my signature.

But I'd recommend you just call him. His number and email are available on the site. You'll gain alot from asking him the question you started this thread with.

Shalom and welcome Brother HMT,
What I read from YKW's posts was that you may be focusing too much on what you want to not be doing, and not enough on what you want to be doing. All your defenses were battling the YH on your right, and he launched a sneak attack on your exposed left. 

To answer your question about what to think of your situation: could be that before you were winning the porn war, and now you know that that was a battle in the greater war against lust. Time for updated battle plans. You have strong resolve. Would you consider reading The Battle of the Generation? It is available on GYE and on Amazon.

Hatzlacha

youknowwho wrote on 21 Aug 2024 14:52:

This is probably a terrible mashal off the cuff but here goes...If someone has a tendency to fall into a small garbage can and all of a sudden he falls into a big garbage can, should he stay there and cry about it? Of course he should get up, clean himself up and work on not falling into any garage can.

The question posed was is it better to be falling this way or that way, and my response was "don't focus on how to fall, focus on staying clean", ultimately when a person acts out whether through porn, or in person, it comes from the same place and requires the same approach. Because the writer has shown great resolve in the past by going 45 days clean, I recommend to use that to push further and improve, and not try to cheshbon which is the better or worse aveirah. Hope that helps