justanotherguylikeyou wrote on 26 May 2020 07:19:

Your post is full of wise insights and advice. I have a question regarding the above quote that I copied from your comments. Did I understand correctly that you are suggesting that sex and intimacy be discussed during dating? If yes, please explain. I would assume that most rebbis/mentors would advise against that. Except in a case where the young lady has also dabbled in inappropriate viewing etc. (and I don't mean a girl who out of curiosity watched once or twice to see what all her teachers were screaming about), I would assume that the shidduch would end immediately with her being scared away by this "bochur who has no sense of tznius". Please clarify.

If you are dating Bais Yaakov girls, (and you actually want to get married)
I don't thing talking about sex on a date with a girl you know for 15-20 hours is a good idea...

I can't even imagine what the conversation would sound like other then she is probably going to go home in a cab.

Thank you so much @justanotherguylikeyou like the name and really enjoyed your well written response. 

I was thinking the same question as some other guys commented. In my opinion, as someone who has been show what it means to exploit and use sex and people for pleasure and objects... I 100% see how helpful it would be, and believe there would be an humongous advantage in talking about views on sex and the whole inyan in general for that matter, before engagement... Or at least marriage. To see where on the spectrum each is holding, where they want to be, what they want to take and want to give... To have a mature and realistic conversation to make sure your on the same page. 
But...
I would like to know how that would work out in reality. Many boundaries sarong that idealistic situation. 1 She may be a novice and would have to be educated which I'm not sure we're be comfortable with me 2 she may not understand that connection of intimacy in marriage (not sure I do either) and it may seem like I'm either hyper focused on sex, I'm only in it for the intimacy, I am not a modest (tzanua) guy, or I don't know what marriage is about (more than superficiality and physicality) 3 she isn't a novice, understands the importance, but isn't sure whether talking about the feeling in real life with someone of the opposite gender (especially someone whom you may be kater involved with) is productive, mature, appropriate, and overall just very very awkward and uncomfortable (which is I guess where I myself am holding now)
All of which, wether a novice or not I think would at the very least scare her (at most make her question men all together) regardless (but especially) of her background ... Beis Yaakov, chassidish, modern orthodox, even Baal teshuva. But then again... I have no idea. 

I like the comment that you said that girls are people too, that they understand the want and desire for connection and intimacy, I never really though about that way. It took so long for me to realize that I am a normal guy and my urges and desires are normal... I guess I'll take your word for it that at the very least girls can relate to the connection aspect, and maybe even the sex. At the same time, I am still a bit skeptical, regardless of the fact that I live in a modern orthodox house with 3 sisters who attend coed camp/school... Both of which I attended and made my way through out alive bh, and a divorced mom who has a bunch of guy friends.. So I've seen how girls generally react around guys. But then again... (once more) I have no idea. 
I trust  you and your word in every way possible, just looking more specific example, explanation, and plan of how this in reality would actually work... (And maybe if you can be more specific than "ask your mentor"), that is the answer to pretty much all my questions, but I'm curious what you and the rest of the GYE Chev have to say. 


Aside from from my question... There was a great quote that I heard from a shovavim schmooze that I found to be funny and true. Sometimes the most a bachur can get his rebbe to speak about girls is on the topic of marriage and relationship advice... So if the rebbe ever starts the topic, everyone, and my mean everyone is plugged in. (Side point: he said a story about his rebbe, and the advice that his rebbe surprising divulged and gave over... "My wife is not the smartest, my wife may not be the prettiest, my wife may not be (insert adjective)... BUT MY WIFE IS THE ONLY ONE FOR ME.). 
Sorry for the long tangent, but I am trying to illustrate the point that for myself, and I'm sure for most of chevra here as well always love talking about that next step, the excitement of finding your zivug, your bashert, your ezer kinegdo, and how to maximize yourself for her, doing everything you can, for her. The topic is just exciting, I guess, (even outside of sex, even just the relationship, the love, the partnership) and I/we, if your willing to explain a little bit what that's like, and how to best prepare ourselves for her.

It's a big ask, I know, and general question really, but this one is independent of the one above ...

Bekitzur.. Whatever you give over will be read and appreciated by myself, and I think some other guys here as well. Also please anyone else who is at that point in their lives, that believes they have sage advise, tales, rules for the rode etc.... Please do tell. 

Maybe im just too curious/excited/lustful//n anticipation/loving/lonely/impatient... Or a big jumble of all 7 (and more I'm sure). That's why I'm here, I guess...

Thanks again,
Yosef10

Hi Yosef10

Thank you for the compliment on the name. I thought simple would be best and in the end of the day, I am just another guy like anyone else here. 

If I understood your questions its really a 3 part message. To the first part of the message for questions 1,2,3 it really all comes down to who you are dating. if you are dating a Bais Yakov girl then high chances are such a discussion is not going to happen. I am definitely not saying "schedule" rigidly a talk about sex and intimacy no matter who you are dating. If it happens it should happen more organically and naturally. I hope it helps.

As for "ask your mentor" it simply means try to find, if you don't have one already, a individual in your life that is wise, good person, and knows YOU in a way that you can talk to him about anything. It is not always easy and sometime we do not really have such a person. I didn't till I was well in to my 20s. I discovered many benefits to having the one person I could be open with. It doesn't even have to be one person and in your case, you have an entire network called GYE as a place to connect to with people who genuinely want to give you the best advice, tips, and guidance in this area.

Thank you for the quote  from the shovavim schmuz. I like it alot in it's simplicity yet powerful message!

Preparing for that new stage in life - To be honest, and I am looking to see what other write on this, preparing for marriage is a little too little  of a word for something that monumental. I think its a healthy balance between knowing yourself and the work you did with yourself till now as well as being humble in knowing that you will have much to learn about her and yourself that only marriage can teach. Having a mentor (the trusted person, ppl,  GYE, others in your life) will go a long way especially in the beginning of marriage because things will come up no matter what and it's not always a simple chat with the spouse. Having the person who has been married for some time will help you understand that some things are normal and expected especially at the beginning of marriage and how to respond to it in a constructive way that you are both heard and feel like you are talking with eachother rather at eachother. 

Hope the above helps! 

Hi wilnevergiveup,

I agree with you that if you are dating a bais yakov girl then talking about it after 15-20 hours just wont happen and if it does she is likely going home in a cab. I was talking about it only if appropriate for the both of them and at the right time in the dating / engagement phase. It's a very sensitive topic even for the the non religious or non Jews so there is  no real timing for this other then the timing that is right for those specific two people who are dating.

I am suggesting that can be worthwhile only if appropriate and wanted to be spoken about by both individuals. It does at times become evident that it can be spoken about after they have been dating for a while (each to their own in regards to the 'while'). Definitely not something that is timed or scheduled in any way. It has to be more natural in progression of a conversation. Having that Rav or mentor will help in this matter if it needs to be talked about and sometimes talking about it with the mentor or Rav will reveal that it didnt need to be talked about. Could save some very embarrassing moment and situations.