Hi Waydown,
You presumably received the email of my post last night. I thought it over this morning and deleted the post. While IMHO the content was true, the delivery was entirely wrong.
I apologize and I hope there are no ill feelings.

waydown wrote:

From google:


Let's not get all wrapped up in semantics.

I never said anything about "root cause" (i don't think).

Many of us were escaping some pain, and retreated into self-absorbed, self-centered, selfish, self-gratifyting, self-destructive behaviors. (I think you may have mentioned something about your childhood in a previous post)

I have met a few people here that claim they just got hooked and couldn't stop. No issues growing up.

Either way, trying to be more outward focused has helped me and others, and even if it doesn't, at least you are doing a chessed.

I can't tell you what your root cause is. You have to figure that out. It could be a combination.

I have never done a study comparing smoking to sex addiction. I can only tell you what I have experienced, and what I have seen others post.

Moish,

On the one hand we say part of the 12 steps are that we realize that we were selfish

Then on the other hand we say lets not get caught up in semantics.

This is where my question lies. I don't think I am selfish or self centered. That's the point. And so if part of recovering is to realize we were selfish I don't see that applicable to me. Thus how would I still work my 12 steps when it doesn't apply to me?

Eslassos I never saw that message but you did get me curious. Please feel free to PM me

Are you sure? I took it down for a reason. Do you want the original or a cleaned up version?

waydown wrote:


waydownup, have you actively worked on the 12 steps? selfish a'hin/ serlfish a'here, it sounds like you are dismissing a well known method without even really trying it.

I resent it when you distort my words. You tried to distinguish between selfish and self-centered, and there is no difference, that's all I was saying.

If you notice, there is no word (certainly not in English) for an action or thought process that is neither selfish nor selfless. You are trying to make one. The truth is that such a concept does not exist. We are always either doing something for ourselves, or for others.
However, even two people performing the exact same action can be in different states of mind. For example, going to work. One guy can be going to his job every day with the intention of climbing the corporate ladder to get more kovod, or to have money to spend on himself, be it at expensive restaurants or strip clubs. And his coworker can be doing the exact same actions to be able support his family or give tzedaka.
Going one step further, even one action can have aspects of both. The same guy can want the kavod and want to provide for his family, etc.
There are very few people (if any) who are totally selfish or totally selfless through and through.
many of us, especially the addicts among us, have found that one of the primary ways to break free of our addictions is to work on exercising our muscles of selflessness. many have found ourselves to be far more selfish than we previously thought.
The act of relations also has both selfish and selfless components to it. Our job is to try to focus more and more on the proper aspect. A result that I have found for myself is that I don't rely on my wife as a human masturbation toy anymore. Hope that makes things clear.

Eslaasos if its a PM and not in public then please send the whole origanl Thanks.

Stilgoing,

I am very cautious to use the word "I" when discussing the 12 steps. I only care about myself. I guess I am selfish LOL! I am trying to say that "I" don't relate to that pointer. Thus for me its a struggle. G-d forbid am I ever saying that anyone else should dismiss it. And yes I have gone thru the 12 steps. Work on the 12 steps is vague since its endless.

Moish pretty clear and yes its commendable to build relationships based on selflessness.

I just don't get the connection between breaking an addiction and selflessness. So it seems like you are suggesting the following. Its not our lust per say that defines us as being more or less selfish than a non luster. Rather by working on the idea of selflessness, it helps us give up or surrender our addiction. So its kind of like a recovery tool. But its not necessarily the root or reason as to why we lust. And just because we are addicted to lust doesn't mean we are more selfish than our neighbor who say is addicted to coffee or smoking.

Do you mean something along those lines?

waydown wrote:

I was also talking about you. I think that those who work on the 12 steps know that they do. I know that I don't. I have read them through numerous times, but I haven't "worked" them. I'm told that it requires daily effort (preferably in a group setting). I don't know if it would work for me, because I have never really tried it. I have some hesitations about parts of it, but I know that many other people who have had the same hesitations as I do Have tried it, and have been helped by it. Will I be helped by it? I don't know for sure, but I assume that I probably would.

waydown wrote:

I find it to be one of the main recovery tools. Whether or not we are "more" selfish than others is of no consequence. How and why it works is beyond me. Do I care? Heck no!

Mr. Waydown,

Why not try an experiment? Try to conscously be more giving and less taking and see what happens. If it helps - great! If not - at least you became more of a baal chessed?

Fair Enough Moish.

The main point is that is that we are not selfish. (Its not that we are "more" or "less" selfish). Rather we have not reached a point of selflessness. Its a vastly different. Selfish means harming others while reaching a point of selflessness means there is no "I" regardless of whether I am harming others.(In Hebrew that would be called hasbatlus)
And then its unfair and incorrect to tell myself ( "I was selfish" "I was self centered".etc...) Rather I should simply say "I strive to be selflessness"