waydown wrote:

Did you even read what I wrote?

Yes you don't like that I "refuse" to change my mind.

1) But there is nothing wrong with "refusing" to change my mind on issues that are not recovery issues.
2) (this is if you will argue that it s a method of recovery)When its a direct contradiction to other methods of recovery then yes I hve to pick & choose. Bottom line either its an illness out of ones control or its juts being selfish. it can't be both.

waydown wrote:


I have a compromise to make, and I was actually waitin' about 40 posts for you to say this, but you haven't.

Say as follows: I, Mr. Waydown might be selfish; I'm not sure (I do many good things, but perhaps they are self-motivated) and I would like to work on that possible defect along with other imperfections I have.

that bein' said, I, Mr. Waydown, have a question: if an alcoholic or lustaholic is powerless over the drug, can that act of drinkin' or actin' out or givin' in to one's lust be also regarded as "selfish"? Can he be powerless and actin' selfishly at the same time?

Thanks Cordony,

This is the insight I am looking to glean. The answer is no one cannot be powerless and selfish at once. I think selfishness is all about one who only cares about himself while disregrading other peoples feelings. Whats more is, that this is even a step less than that. If you have no control how can you be selfish? So you will tell me but you have control to place yourself in a situation where you won't be controless. Thats a tall mountian to conquer. You & dov have acheived that.

In fact, if I can have the chutzpa to say this. I think its almost selfish for those in recovery to say hey all those low lives still commiting averious they are all selfish. Its like you guys forget how hard it is to lay in bed at nite unable to fall asleep without that lust dose. I was in shidduchim for quite a while. And i remember discussing with friends that married guys tend to often knock us. They are easy to say oh this guy he is too picky bla bla...This is true even for married older guys who went thru it. Why? Becuase the second you snap out of something you forget what its like to be in it. And guess what when I got married it was the same way. You forget struggles quickly.

( As I pointed out a few days ago, B"H I have never commited many of the sins that the OTD tuna bagel community does. But I will never knock them or say they are selfish, lowlives or anyhting else. They are simply addicts.)

waydown wrote:

You totally missed the boat.
It sailed, and, sadly, you are still standing on the shore...

waydown wrote:


two points to begin with

1. I suggested that you admit that you might be selfish; you didn't do that.
2. I suggested that you ask the question, and you already have it answered.

waydown wrote:


I can't and won't speak for Dov, but you obviously don't read what i write (somethin' that you have been accused of).

waydown wrote:


some gall you got!
Why don't you ask all the people on the call I have?
Why don't you read anythin' I write?
Why don't you read anythin' Dov writes or says about constant strugglin' and selfishness?

Oh, you wanna know why?
Cuz you are showin' so many damn signs of selfishness; that's why!

b'hatzlachah to you

From one selfish (and still strugglin') guy to others (whoever is willin' to listen).

Cordony,

For starters yes I do admit that I may be selfish. (After all noone truely knows themselves so its always a possibility)

And I'd still like to understand how acting out in a manner out of my control is selfish.

Secondly, I totally appoligize if my words were offensive. And I never meant to accuse anyone specifically of knocking others. All I meant to say is, that by proclaiming that one who masterbates is selfish to a certain degree subconsciously is kind of knocking those of us left behind who are trying so hard to be unselfish and considerate of others by trying to creep out.

What maybe more proper and I think this may be what you guys mean is the following;

One who just goes by his daily life without thinikng about, feeling guilty and wanting to change his uncontrolable act outs is acting selfish since lust affects all around us. However, even if one fails and worse never creeps out of his addiction, he is not necessarly selfish.

Once again I never ever meant to knock you guys perosnlly. In fact I think you guys are all hidden tzadikim. In my mind this is the toughest battle ever. Yes its tough and scary. I envy the warriors that succeeded. And I defintley disagree with your signature where you write
"From one selfish (and still strugglin') guy to others (whoever is willin' to listen)." Because if you took this mesiras nefesh and recahed the lofty point that you have reached you are the exact opposite of selfish.

Ok so I should really try to start a new thread in a more bbakovidik manner. But let me just rephrase my question guys and lets leave out prior discussions.

If one has no control over his acting outs is he selfish? And if yes why?

waydown wrote:


Self-Obsession

As we make the conscious spiritual choices setting into motion the addictive process, we become increasingly selfish and self-centered. A rebellious attitude sets in, with or without pseudo-compliance on the surface. In order to keep from looking at ourselves, we find fault with those closest to us as well as with the institutions ministering to our needs. All we can see are the inadequacies, wrongs, and injustices of others.
We become increasingly closed off and defensive, unteachable and willful, and a kind of hardening sets in. Obsession with self is a negative spiritual attitude and force. Though the world outside may not see it as such, our spouses, children, fellow-workers, cats, and dogs know different. Self-obsession smells bad to everyone but the obsessed.

Our self-obsession takes different forms, from one in plain view to the covered, where it is disguised under passivity and the appearance of gentleness or pseudo-concern. The greater the self-obsession, the greater the con to disguise it. It prevents us from detecting the emerging flaws that later will turn into cracks and disastrous fissures in the reservoir of the self. And self-obsession inevitably produces spiritual blindness. To keep from seeing ourselves, we seize on the wrongs of others.

Most difficult for us to see was that being obsessed with self meant we had become the Source of our own livesour own god. We were the most important person in our world. Thus, we had to connect with ourselves; we became addicted to ourselves. No wonder so many of us found masturbation to be infinitely more than childhood experimentation. It got us high on ourselves, short-circuiting any meaningful connection with others and God.
In our great and lofty pursuits of "finding" our lives we shut out the possibility of ever receiving life.

"The program people showed it to me. I'm high on myself. I'm sitting there, talking about myself and my wife and my job and those people out there! And I'm the center of the universe and can't see that that's the problem! It got to be awful lonely, sitting on that throne of God."

Thus, we make ourselves god.

Sorry my appology I have ADD and I can't comprehend the below response?

Are you suggesting that what drove us to become an addict to begin with was our self centeredness. However once we are an addict its out of our control? I appologize I am just trying to reconcile the out of our control aspect with selfishness?

WayDown, This might be one of my weirder posts: I don't want you to think I agree with your view. I'd pressed the thank you button by mistake.
I am a self-obsessed person, most probably much more selfish than you - but your thinking did take me back in time to how I think I saw things not long ago.
Your posts do very seem to be like someone in denial.
You've got some really spiritually developed people who are walking the walk (and they don't pretend that they've arrived) communicating with you. It is sensible to give their reading of things some credit.
Good luck.
Shlomo

Shlomo,

The only thing that I may possibly be in denial is that I am selfish. I don't deny that I have done bad stuff. I don't deny that I am ill. I don't deny that lust hurts others. I don't deny that I need help. I don't deny that my current lifestyle is unmanagable.

But really I'd like to stop positng stuff in atagonizing manners and try to at -least undertsand the other view point whether I am in agreement or not.

I honestly did not understand Cordony's response. I am a newcomer and I just don't know how to follow certain style reponses. Please nothing against anyone and I am not being sarcastic. I sincerly did not undertstand how that answer relates to my question.

And so I'll pose the question again. If someone is sick and can't control himself how can he be selfish? Yes of course he has an obsession and must staisfy himself (thus he is self- obssesed) But he has no control over stopping that crave. Perhaps I just define the term selfish as wrong. In my mind "selfish" means you know you are hurting others by some deed but you just don't care. Or you care and could avoid hurting someone but you choose to benefit yourself over your friend. But say, you know you are hurting the other guy or your wife but you have no choice, you just have no control no bechira to stop the pain. Bottom line I just don't get the connection.

When i was a young boy in school there was this older farbitted yid from the holocuast (who snapped) who use to hangout in school. He nebach couldn't live for a second without a cigareete. As kids it was funny nebach to watch him panic s he noticed his old cigareete burn out and quickly grab a new one so he doesn't miss a second of smoking. Was the guy selfisH? I don't think so. He was sick nebach.

Please respond in simple laymans terms. Can someone bring this down to my level. Thanks.

Thank you, Una.