Dear Skeptical (oy, the fake name thing is torture for me... ),

If GYE were only open to people who put their pictures up, their names, etc., then it would be a very empty place indeed!

The challenges we yidden have with the internet, with our penises, with the images we see of pretty women in the street, with our wives, with our bodies, with our sisters-in-law, with...etc...are so broad and varied, that it is so great that there is a site for anybody to come on and hide their face, fake their name, and admit whatever they want.

It's fantastic!

And nothing I have ever posted (or said, or thought) contradicts that.

But some here are addicts . True, we are in the minority...but we are very ill. And we need help. And for us, if it stops with the fake names, the virtual relationships, and the absolutely free honesty...I do not believe it will get anywhere in the end. And yes, even many of the addicts will experience some short-lived, welcome relief from crazy and stupid obsession. But there has been no change in them, for the 'openness' was just too cheap and easy. Why is it cheap? - Well, why do they agree to do it? Only because it is unreal enough.

So...

The big problem we addicts have with recovery, is not the awesome power of our lust. Rather, it is our pervasive lying. I know the frum world sees the only serious issue as being the lust, the sperm on the floor, the issurim we do... Yes, they are all terribly destructive in so many ways. But they are not the great hurdle we frum chronic masturbaters need to overcome in order to really start getting better. It is our faking and lying that is our great enemy.

We are skilled at faking being normal - while walking around thinking about how she looks naked. (We like to call it 'struggling' with thinking about how she looks naked, cuz it sounds a lot better...) Or we just masturbated, cleaned up after ourselves - and then walk out of the bathroom knowing that we are pretending to act very, very normal. Go to the supermarket and try to go up the aile that the really pretty frum lady seems to be turning up as well to get another nonchalant look at her - while looking very frum indeed and busy reading our wife's shopping list. And more than the gentile, but particularly the frum porn user/masturbater, who is the professional liar and faker. Because we have to be!

"What?" the new guy asks (in indignation); "Do you expect me to klop on the bima and announce in shul every time I look at porn or masturbate myself?! What good would that do?" And of course, he is right! But we only ask that kind of 'question' because we are sincerely afraid to open up the right way - so we paint the right kind of opening up in very silly-looking colors. "This crackpot is telling us to yell it out to everyone!" Hey, I was scared out of my whits to open up, for over ten years.

Of course klopping is completely unnecessary for recovery and would be nothing but damaging, to all. For, the stam mentchen in shul are either totally oblivious to the real feelings of horrible dependence that this poor guy is living with, or are judgemental and truly disgusted by such behaviors, or have to declare that they are because they are also busy masturbating and keeping up the same facade we have been busy maintaining all these years. In any case, there is no way that any good will come of bimah-klopping. No wonder it is also, assur!

The non-addicts who come to GYE may not need this opening up at all; I do not know. But the addicts here who come forward and open up to real people, discover something funny: They only learn what truly being honest with themselves is like, after they start getting honest with another. Amazing. And if they continuously open up about stuff on a regular basis, their self-honesty grows and grows. It's like getting 'infected' with something good. It's precious.

It sounds to me like you are discovering this very thing, yourself, Skeptical!

All along it was not the desires that were the obstacle to our success in recovery - it was the maintenance of the false face of being just a normal, good, frum guy at any cost. That was the greatest obstacle. And the yetzer hora that frum addicts have, of needing to 'figure it all out', is the same thing. We believed that if we could figure it all out then we could cure ourselves without getting exposed by opening up completely to anyone else! We could avoid the 'chilul hashem, we could keep the wife happy and oblivious...it has alleh mailos, no?

Gevalt.

Does anything I am writing here sound like bashing?

Then go klop on a bimah or something...

Dov - you forgot to mention hitting clear on the internet history as a way to cover up as well
he speaks the truth, chevra. The point about "cleaning up" in private secrecy (or changing the boxers - we've all been there guys) - after the act- resonated with me...

dov - would u consider someone an addict who SOMETIMES feels the need the m, look at p, etc. but other times LOOKS at these things in DISGUST (throws away that ad in the sports magazine, can't tolerate watching stuff - with even less "stuff" than what we do in lust, etc) ...? I personally would see myself looking AWAY from the frum lady in the store... also I DONT think about MARRIED WOMEN while lying in bed - only single ones (my chmura's I know .... It's such a tenion no?

I know I have asked these q's before but chazara can't hurt, right?

Got to go...

So you're saying that I "got real" by bringing some of my GYE relationships to the next level, either by phone or in person?

Even though we were being just as honest, if not more, when chatting?

That's the point. It is easier to be totally honest when there is a mechitza between you and the other person AKA a computer screen. Even a phone is more of a mechitza than in person. To be honest face to face is difficult.

For the same reason, if it's someone you don't really know, it's easier. Telling a parent, close friend, rebbi or rav that knows you is harder.

The closer the connection, the harder it is to be honest because it is more real. It hits home, and the truth hurts.

It's the captain kirk post.. ayin shum in dov quotes.

I don't see why harder is necessarily better, or even helpful - but if one wants to maintain that somehow it is more helpful, fine. Why must the other methods be discounted?

Harder isn't always better. I mean climbing a mountain is difficult, but I doubt that it will help much with a porn addiction (except for the fact that there is no wifi on most mountians ).

The uncomfortableness we feel when telling a real person about our problem is a siman that it is more real. In our own minds, we can twist things and they don't seem that bad. We have all sorts of excuses for our behaviour. If we write it in a journal it becomes more real and we can see it more objectively for what it is - a lame excuse. If we try to explain it to our Rav, we will really feel uncomfortable, an excellent sign that our reasoning is not sound.

I'm just pointing out that part of our problem is fantasy and rationalization. Facing a real person, helps to uncover our real selves (not who we fantasize we are). It's uncomfortable, but useful in facing, accepting, and dealing with the painful truth, rather than running and hiding from it.

Make sense?

I'm still not really getting it, but that's ok. People should do what they feel works for them.

My real issue is with calling GYE and its methods fake.

PS. We totally hijacked this thread. Sorry!

Oh boy, you never can convince a skeptic .

Woah, I never meant that they are 100% fake just because they are not 100% exposed/real.

Let me backtrack a bit, here:

It is of course very rare for any connection that two people have will ever be 100% real. In connection with this, the gemorah says "ein ish meis ella l'ishto, v'ein isha meisa ella l'ba'aloh" - the intimacy and realness of the proper marriage is one that means they are truly connected. So when R"l one dies, it is to the other one that a part of them is gone. Not so even with any other loved one R"l dies - as much as the horror of that tragedy may feel far worse than losing a spouse, it is still not the other half of the person. Yes, the pain may never leave, the loss may never leave, the horror of it may be unimaginable (and we should never know from such tragedies in Klal Yisroel)...but the loss of a true spouse changes the way a person is and lives in a way that nothing else can - if their marriage was right. That may not make the agony worse than other losses may be - but it makes it more life-changing. Other losses/deaths can be less real and more easily compartmentalized. And so, 'ein ish meis ella l'ishto...'

[On the other hand, if the husband or wife is an addict [i]not[/i] in recovery and maintains a double life hiding all kinds of things 'for shalom bayis' , then the intimacy there? Are we really talking about 'a marriage' in sense that the gemorah is talking?]

OK...that was a tangent...but normally, what connection is the ultimate honesty? I think it is a question of degrees. Lemoshol, if a new GYE-er is sweating as he posts for the very first time...he is using a fake name, yes - but for him the newfound honesty is so powerful, so liberating. It's great.

Really.

But as time goes on, it loses its power, of course. I suggest that is because it is still so comfort-based.

You keep asking why I say the honesty only works if it is 'really hard to do' - I think that is missing the point. 'More honesty' doesn't work because it is uncomfortable, rather, it it uncomfortable because it works. And the sad truth is that we are not being secretive due to fear of being found out...we are hiding in order to protect our one closest, greatest love and best friend of all: our sexual acting out.

So taking any real steps that might jeopardize our freedom to porn out and freely use our erotica or masturbation without any real accountability, is terrifying! And if it is honest, it should be terrifying!

Now, let's say after a while posting with a fake name, he sees that his posting is just not enough. OK, so the next step he takes is: posting more honestly. Or maybe using his real first name (provided it isn't something like Chuna-Feitel, of course)...all good things. Maybe that will help - maybe that will be enough forever. Seriously. Who knows?

And that step may be all the guy needs!

For many, this wears off too. What many people need is meeting face to face with another real practicing chronic habitual porn user and masturbater who is clean....and can see them know them and be known, too - and be honest about exactly what's going on with them. There may be more honesty than that, too...I do not know. But that level of truthfulness is often what people who are clean find they need.

I do not mean to ever put down anything that is actually working for someone on GYE. It is only when it does not work, that I try to ask people why they insist that this is all they can do - that they cannot possibly do more and why they tell themeselves the lie that they must hide behind a fake name otherwise: "they'd be unable to be honest?" Gevalt, let them keep their masturbating with honesty. Some feel they'd die if they'd open up to safe, real live people..it's not true. What's going on here is that people are willing to play all manner of games - as long as it does not REALLY endanger their precious stash.

But if the posting in a virtual website, with a fake name and without getting really clear about what they are desiring, doing, or whatever - is working for them...I'd never criticize that!

PS. R' Twerski has been quoted as having said that "if a person's sexual misbehavior was virtual (as in just with porn images) and not with real people (as would be with prostitution, for example), then virtual recovery tools (such as GYE posting) is enough for them." Sounds rather elegant, no? But how could that be true?

I'd take issue with it for the simple reason that masturbating oneself is not a virtual act at all. Neither is looking at porn. The porn may be virtual, yes. But no one here will say that when he was looking at porn it was not a real, live, visceral experience!

So it seems he was misquoted.

We men who have been struggling inside with our inner pain over our hidden behavior, have had enough insistence on 'inner recovery work for our inner problem' and 'totally hidden recovery for our totally hidden problem'. Denial will not help denial, and hiding more will not help our hiding.

Chaza"l tell us, "Kol ha'over aveiroh b'tzin'ah, nifro'im mimenu bagolui." In other words, I believe they are telling us that it is our choice: Either recover by opening up to real people and feeling that gilui in a recovery venue that is actually safe - or end up getting caught and publicly embarrassed by the fruits of our own fake lives and wreckage. It's not a 'punishment' at all, but just the way real life works.

Thanks dov! you said it better than me, and longer of course

Thanks...but does Skeptical still see what I wrote as saying that GYE or its methods are fake, or not?

Sorry it took me so long to respond here.

You just write SO much that I sometimes feel that I need to read it a few times at different times in order to properly process the individual points.

Dov


This is really my point of contention.

You are assuming that if people are posting on a website while using a made up username, they are

a) hiding their true feelings
b) not honestly conveying their ups and downs
and c) not making real connections with the other people they are communicating with who are also using made up usernames.

I feel that people can go to SA meetings and though they may use their real first name, they can also (if they wish)

a) hide their true feelings
b) not honestly convey their ups and downs
and c) not make real connections even with others who are using their real first name.

People who go to meetings also have the option of not showing up when they are down, and they can also reappear when they get their "second wind".

It's not the method. It's the person and how they are using it.

I think most people here even the ones with fake names have real relationships with other members too, and meet people in real life too. It's not either-or. And I don't get why calling yourself by your first name here makes forum posts any more real. I still don't know who you are Dov, except by your posts. And you know my real name too, even though I haven't published it online for all the world to see.

Dov wrote:


I get what you're saying but the logic of this bothers me. If watching porn on a computer is real, then so is typing on a computer. The porn may be virtual but the person is really looking. The forum may be virtual, but the person is really typing and expressing their thoughts.

If the issue is whether there's a human connection, I'd suggest that there's more human connection on GYE than in me looking at a picture of a woman I don't know, will probably never meet and certainly won't remember.


Dov wrote:


Again, I take the point but I don't agree with your explanation of this gemoroh. The gemoroh is not talking about addictions but any aveiroh, and you certaintly wouldn't suggest we talk about all our aveiroh in a public meeting. That would actually be quite wrong "ashrei nesuy pesa cesuy chato'oh" Surely this gemoro is referring to a person who is being punished for his aveiroh. One shouldn't think if it's in private it will remain that way forever. But, if he does sincere teshuvah, Hashem wouldn't drag that into the open to embarrass him for no reason.

But the thing that reaslly got to me, and the reason I'm faking this post is this:
Dov wrote:


I love you Dov, but this got me quite annoyed. It's something that's been on my mind for a while. I can't say that my life has become unmanageable because of porn. Twisting the meaning of the word until it fits my life seems deceptive and wrong. I just don't feel that way. I've always been in control enough that it never got out of hand, and I never did anything that caused me serious harm in the normal physical sense.

So excuse me for catching myself before I did anything totally stupid. Excuse me for caring enough about my yiddishkeit to try and work on this problem just because it's a aveiroh, rather than circumstances forcing me to. Are you seriously suggesting that Hashem has created a world in which someone in my position could never actually stop doing the aveiroh, just because it wasn't serious enough!

I'm sick of being told how I should feel about my addiction and what my experience must have been. I think I am addicted because I haven't managed to quit yet, and I do feel somewhat powerless over porn. That's it. But when the book writes about my first share and how I should include all the most emotional aspects of it. Oh shut up, there are no emotional aspects of it. Nothing really bad ever happened because of it. Sure, if I exaggerate my past and my feeling I could fake some emotion behind why I want to quit, but fake is what it would be. I just want to quit because I don't want to do the aveiroh and feel the spiritual malady that comes with it. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

So I have very little pain associated with it, so I'm stuck. I can't get better and I don't want it to get worse. Why would I? Why the hell should I? Sure if I end up with a zona tomorrow I'd probably go to the meetings and cry my eyes out, but I'm going to try and stop myself getting anywhere near that far. So I'm worse off?! Talk about hitting a nuclear reset button, I'd have to fall very low indeed just so I can have something 'real' to share at my first meeting?! Please. Tell me you can see where I'm coming from.

p.s. I hope my post, angry in tone though it is, will be taken in the way intended. The tone is an expression of how I feel about some of the issues being raised, and not because I'm upset or annoyed with Dov or anyone else. I always look forward to reading Dov's posts and see lots of wisdom in them, I'm just looking for clarity in my own situation, like everyone else I suppose.

Kol Hakavod Doc,

the main thing I think gained from posting is writing your true feelings and that you did!
perhaps some hide them, but you don't.

we have discussed some of your points in the past.

I will write some of my feelings....for both of us.

my life was becoming unmanageable. 30 plus years! keep that in mind.

my addiction was escalating...steadily....keep that in mind.

I was not concerned with the sin of it; yes...on Y"K and R"H it bothered me...I would cry about it...there were times in the year that it was a concern....things happened in my life, my family that perhaps was related, but I wasn't obsessive about it.

you mention that you don't do anything stupid because of the addiction.

I was just explaining to some people how in my opinion the stupid things that the addicted people do are really no different that the non-stupid things that the addicts do; the only difference is opportunity and a bit of shame. if I may quote Robin Williams, "God created two heads, but with just enough blood to run to only one of them at a time."

You should thank God that your addiction is somewhat in control, and at the same time, know that it could get worse.

I don't know enough to judge if the fear of sin or Gehinnom will cause anyone to pull the switch...perhaps yes, perhaps no.

Like I wrote here many times...for me, it was hitting rock bottom.
When I did hit that place, I knew that I needed to kriech out.

Im an old man; youre a young guy.
Whatever it is that will serve as the catalyst, take advantage of it.
I wasted so many hours, days, months and years...from myself, my family, my community.

I read the book...yes, some seems a bit stretched; some seem to be irrelevant. the acceptance part really speaks to me. I accept that I really cannot control it. nu-nu. That helps me on the second looks and the lingering thoughts. It helps me a lot with my wife. No matter what she says or does, it does not affect me (except when it does...this was the subject of SA meeting today). I have really been working on those second thoughts. That's where trouble begins.

I rambled; not sure what I wrote above. Perhaps some of it will help someone.
I feel and care a lot for you.
I want nothing but the best for you.
you have your entire life ahead of you and Im sure it will be special.

b'hatzlachah

skeptical wrote:


Thanks for helping me use blue ink.

So?

Nothing I have ever written argues against anything you wrote here.

I don't quite get what your issue is with what I write, unless you are just insulted. If that's it, I apologize if I was too forthright for your comfort, but will not own responsibility for your issue. And no, that was not another insult, just honesty.

So then, I guess that you have finally proven that meetings are no advantage over GYE forum posting.

Well, I have a reservoir of dozens of guys I have come to know personally (yes, that means on a real first name basis) on GYE who have told me that the day they agreed to stop hiding behind their fake name and started to really open up to a real person using their real voice, was the day they started finding success at staying clean.

And yes, some of them have kept that success for a long time.

But most of them have found they needed to take things to the next level and stop hiding their faces and persona...doing that was then found to 'do the trick' for them.

And yes, I agree with you 100%: just going to meetings is not enough. Getting fully open and staying open in them is the trick.

And really that's not enough, either: working the 12 steps in order and thoroughly is what really 'does the trick'.

Whenever I have ever written on GYE that posting behind a fake name is a weakness, it was directed at those for whom it is not working. I was trying to let them know that there is an alternative, and that they have not nearly exhausted the 'toolbox of honesty tools', by their being here on this forum. Often guys cannot imagine taking a bigger step than actually honestly posting here...and it's not true.

For there is a lot of honesty - and a lot of hope - out there, still. Because there are real, live people very much like them out here, who really care.