Reb Smiley:

Let me address a few points you made, and then expound a bit on the subject in general. You asked what was the rationale of bring this particular da'as Torah, and the answer is that this particular Rav, Shmuel Gellar, has vast experience in dealing with frum men's sexual addictions and/or perversions -- including, internet porn, infidelity with zonos, homosexuality, pre-marital sex, etc. And I have been doing shimush with him for over a decade. So yes, we are somewhat involved in the parsha. I know Rabbi, Dr. Twersky, and he is certainly one of the gadolim in the subject. Because he is so famous, it's hard to get access. You can't just pick up the phone and be m'ya'etz with him. Besides, there are plenty of other frum professionals who treat the aforementioned sexual disorders and deviances.

Next, your point is well-taken about how many have tried learning, and the notion of Torah tavlin is not working for them.

So let me make my point in a different way: certainly we all agree that the statement regarding the 'yetzer hara and Torah being a tavlin for it' as an authoritative teaching. We know that the authors of that thought were authentic da'as Torah. THe question is: why am I learning, but still stumbling in this sin?

That's a fair question. And of course we could say it in the context of anything. We all learn, and we all stumble in one area or another -- lashon hara, gezel, profanity, anger, and in our case, znus.

I was sharing your post with a frum psychologist in shul tonight, and he pointed out to me that Rav Wolbe says: When does Torah become an effective tavlin against the yetzere hara? When one is holding by mastery over 5 chalakim: Torah b'eyun, Torah b'kius, Tanach with meforshim, Mussar, and all the chalakim of Shulchan Aruch.

You, and others, have argued that we've tried learning, and it just does not work for us. And hearing mussar about how we need more just gets us even more depressed.

Look, brothers, I'm not an adam gadol yet. B'ezras HaShem one day I will be. So I'm not trying to come across as some ba'al mussar. But I can say, and I will say, that we can't give in to that yetzer hara. Whatever we've learned, it's not enough. If we truly have learned kol hatorah kulo, we would not be dealing with this particular yetzer -- ken nirah li.

Can anyone honestly say, "Yes, I have learned all of Shulchan Aruch and nosei keilav, plus all of Shas and meforshim, plus all of Tanach and meforshim, and many of the baalei mussar, and then you know what I did? I went and stimulated myself in front of some erotic imagery on the computer? Gimme a break guys! We may have gone to a night seder, learned some Mishna Brurah, attended a daf yomi shiur, then went home to browse the news, check out a few parve websites, and then once everyone was asleep, quietly explored the nether worlds of eroticism.

But the idea of Torah tavlin l'yetzer hara isn't that we just crack open a mussar sefer, and then poof, presto chango, no more ta'avah for znus. It's in our kishkas. That's our avodah zara of this generation. Hold up in front of us a statue of Mercury, shlep us to a Wiccan temple, drop us into a Hindu temple, and we'll puke! But expose us to some pritzas on the TV, trigger us with something that makes our blood tingle with a testosterone surge, and we are thinking about how and when we can get in front of a computer for some fun. That's what we are fighting. And a huge part of our struggle is to substitute the triggering mechanisms with something else.

I agree with the points that many others have made about how sexual addictions need to be treated with Torah-dik counseling and therapy. No question about it. Some people have a more serious problem than others. No question. A stam ba'al eitzah or rebbe is not necessarily going to have the experience and keilim to help. It is a specialization.

Let me just conclude with the following thoughts:
1) we are all embroiled in an inner struggle. This provokes angry, testy words. We are all growing, and this is therapeutic. I am mochel any of the insinuated insults, and ask mechila from those whom I insulted. Nothing was said in hostility, or with the intention of hurting. This is raw emotion cloaked in bluntness, anger, resentment, defensiveness, etc. I hope we can all agree that everything said here on this website is meant to help us all deal with our problem, and to help each other.

2) No dispute, there is a lot of da'as Torah out there who is qualified to give us hadracha. Anyone can cite b'shem some big rav. I just want to point out that every time I've ever said anything b'shem da'as Torah, I've specified who that da'as Torah was: Rav Moshe Aharon Stern, Rav Shmuel Gellar, and Rav Wolbe. So anyone's statements critical of anonymous statements citing da'as Torah are out of line. When I give my opinion, I say it's my opinion, and then will bring sources to support my opinion. Anyone who wants to engage me directly should contact me through chat, and we'll exchange phone numbers, and I'll divulge more about my identity that way

3) Effective treatment of this struggle with znus is multi-pronged: it entails (a) professional counseling in many cases, (b) a shomer, (c) support groups like this one, (d) consulting one's own Rav and da'as Torah, (e) increased ameilus b'Torah, and (f) rebuilding a strong, intimate relationship with one's wife. It can be all or some of these things at any given time.

I think that what people are disagreeing with you on is that you're clumping together everyone with a problem of lust together.Yeah, for a normal guy with a normal sex drive, maybe all you need is an intimate relationship with your wife.But for a guy who uses lust as a drug (whether or not it's an addiction) then obviously feeding his lust by using his wife is counterproductive and unhealthy. In that case his connection with his wife isn't the answer and neither is his learning.It's the first few options you wrote.
He needs to go to therapy or work on what's causing the issue.And since what's causing the issue is not his sex drive then working on it with his wife is not going to help.
I don't think there's actually an argument going on here, it's that what you're rov told you to do is not going to help these guys.

To go a bit off topic, there is obviously something else to be done to work on a regular tayvah as well.When a boy hits puberty and the urges start, he's way before marrige and definitely before finishing Torah b'eyun, Torah b'kius, Tanach with meforshim, Mussar, and all the chalakim of Shulchan Aruch (even I wasn't there yet ).

Also the answer after marriage can't only a connection with a wife.I don't know about marriage but I'm assuming a good connection isn't going to help when the urge hits and your wife is a niddah or away.So what it seems to me is that the tools that one can use as a bachur, can and sometimes need, to be used after marriage as well.

Whether or not I'm right I want to thank you for caring enough to try to help.

Thank you Fortunate Man for your response.

I don't really understand how the points I made were addressed, but, no matter. The main thing is that the idea of "Torah Tavlin" while a very true and absolutely daas Torah concept is rarely useful for those on this forum, and of course this is not the Torah's fault, as you so correctly point out that we just don't know how to use it (try selling the "master the five chalokim of Torah" or "learn kol hatorah kulo" methods to the people here who are suffering deep yisurei nefesh on a daily basis). I understand the maamar chazal "zocho naaseh lo sam hachayim, lo zocho naase lo sam hamoves" to closer resemble how the concept of "Torah Tavlin" works in the area of addiction.

Regarding the thoughts you shared:
1) Indeed nothing said here is intended in any way to be hurtful or resentful (at least I speak for myself), it is only to share ideas, raise awareness and promote sensitivity, anything appearing to be "prickly" is like the posuk says "tochachas megula ahava mesuteres", and I wish you much hatzlocho in your personal journey as well as your professional life.
2) The term "daas torah" and quotes from gedolim are often either not applicable, misunderstood by others, or not useful (or worse), or all of the above. For this reason I believe we have to be very careful when making statements about "daas Torah" and how they are to be applied in ones personal struggles, arguing the merits of the daas Torah or of the godol in who's name it is quoted is imho not really useful in any way. This is mostly semantics though, Torah ideas are the cornerstone of our work here and are most definitely welcome and encouraged.
3) Trying to fit the tens of tools, ideas, methodologies and resources from all across this website into one six step paragraph is probably a bit too condensed for most people. Take a look around, I am confident that, like I have, you will learn many new ideas and perspectives on these and other life issues, "mikol melamdai hiskalti".

I want to conclude by saying that your story is both heartbreaking and inspiring at the same time, I wish you much hatzlocho in your unique struggle and don't be ashamed to reach out for support, as struggling human beings we can all use some chizuk every once in a while no matter who and what we think of ourselves.

FortunateMan, I don't understand your response to me. You wrote a long post about how important it is to channel our libidos through our wives. This was in response to a person who's wife is not allowing him that outlet. You then say "it is a highly individualized matter, and each couple will need to be counseled differently." But that was only after you said "that marriage is ostensibly over", and yet you seem to be arguing with me strongly when I suggest that that "is too rash at best."



On the side point, I have experienced many times people quoting things b'sheim an odom godol and if it is questioned they hide behind that line and say I'm not a ben torah for not agreeing with them. I don't think these labels serve any useful purpose. Then later I was able to ask the odom godol himself who said he never said that or his words were taken out of context. So now I only take my da'as torah from an odom godol when I heard it directly or read it in his sefer, not when it's given over by someone I don't know. It could be that you repeated all this word for word. Could be, I just don't know do I, so how can I trust it? B''H R'Duvid Chaim is able to get da'as torah to speak on the conference calls every now and then.

The rest of this post was deleted when I re-read it.

Fortunate Man wrote:


Some people stop doing porn and masturbation without all those things you listed. You might argue with a Rabbi, but you can't argue with reality.




It's actually not just about the cumulative Torah you learned in the past, but the one you are going to learn today, and how you will do it.




Can you give us an example of a trigger and what you yourself replace it with? It's not too clear from your sentence.




I think when you do it you want to be careful that you are not using the Torah as a shovel with which to dig, and I don't mean any offense. It's easy to find some Torah to corroborate an idea, it's not easy to tell that you are right. A good guide is to test it empirically. You can come up with a theory, back it with the Torah, and then test it, and if it works consistently now you know you saw it right.

Yes. I forget how many ways there are of proving from the torah that a sheretz is tohar. I'm not that interested in debating theory, I only care about what works

Yechidah, as someone whom I greatly respect, I ask you to please clarify this post.

yechidah wrote:


Why the need to go further? If we are toalking to people like myself, Mendelz, cordnoy, Dr Watson, smiley1900, innastruggle, etc. why even entertain such dangerous thoughts that are lightyears away of where we are holding right now?

yechidah wrote:


shouldn't this be for the Gaurd-your-Shalom Bayis Forum?

yechidah wrote:


"This ta'avah" are we talking about the same thing? If you are talking about a normal healthy Human, maybe you are right. But for this forum of people who are abusing their sexual rights, their wives, and everything else, are we going to solve this by yes seeking intensity of sexual union with anyone, even our wives?!?!?!?!

and you even quote him saying "you are sorely mistaken" how many hundreds of people have prooven him wrong already, that the ONLY way to solve this is by realizing that I (myself, leave marriage out of this for the time being) DON'T NEED ANY SEX!!! period. ?

Thank You in advance

I'M A MAGGID SHIUR

I'M A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR

I'M A BT/FFB/KISHKE

I DISAGREE

I AGREE

I'M AN ADDICT

IT'S CHOL HAMOED

HEY

THIS IS ALL RIDICULOUS

THERE'S A FORUM

WHERE PEOPLE POST ABOUT THEIR STRUGGLES

WHERE THEY FIND ACCEPTANCE

THE BARDICHEVER SAID


DON'T GRIBBLE

I'm not here to tell anyone that they are an addict. Each person should decide that for themselves. Maybe you are, maybe you're not. How would i know?

Equally, i request that no one be dismissive about weather lust/sex is an addiction for myself and others, who do identify themselves as such, and give sweeping generalisations about what the solution is.

I have noticed an interesting thing. People who are still grappling with their lust problems are the ones who give advice to others on how to overcome it. Their sentences usually start with "you" or "we".

Wheras people who are finding a solution that works for them don't give advice to others, but rather share about what works for them. Their sentences usually start with "i".

(This is also the case with newcomers or relative newcomers at SA metings.)

I am here to share about what works for me.

I've spent years trying the Torah Tavlin approach. It didn't work for me. Because i now know that i'm an addict. It only increased the guilt and therefore compounded the problem. My Rebbe who encouraged me with this approach for many years, now encourages me to work the 12 step program. Kudos to him for being open minded and realise that this problem is way more than a yeitser hora.

I have been to many tharapists. All were well meaning and supportive. Some had a bit of an idea of what addiction is. None were able to help me.

Today i am part of the SA fellowship and i work the 12 step program with the guidance of a sponsor.

Today i believe i am in the right place, and am best placed to achieve long term recovery, one day at a time...

returning to Hashem wrote:


RTH I'm really sorry that this ruckus had to take place at your doorstep.

I hope you stay with us and find what works for you.

Fortunate Man wrote:


Please look at every other thread on this site; hundreds of them. There are no angry, tested words. There is only one thread that has it...this one, and I am sorry for Mr. "returning to Hashem."

the line about "anonymous poster' was not said regarding the daas torah; it was said referring to the poster. Anonymous people saying things in the name of gedolim mean nothing and are counter productive.

A gutten moed R' Fortunate,

I had nothing to add so I figured that it would be nice just to say hello.

My name is Eli

(Actually I do have something to add but not to takes sides).

If it works do it. If it doesn't work don't do it. Period.

We are all here because lust was destroying our lives, not because we simply had a ta'ava once and saw "something bad" and need to do teshuva. (I used to masturbate so much that my skin (not my hands) was raw. Yes, that's true.

The rishonim say that when someone is completely ensconced in aveiros the first thing they need to do is stop doing it, not vidui, not charattah, not kabbalah al haasid, just stop. For some people, Torah might work to get them to stop immediately, but for many of the people here, it just hasn't worked.

If it works for you ma toiv umah naim go for it, Aleih v'hatzlach and feel good that you are doing the right thing.



but


If you have tried it a gazzillion times (as I did) and failed and thought to yourself, "If i only find the right vort or shtickle torah/mussar/chassidus/k'neitch to inspire me, I'll get it right next time" and found yourself in the never ending cycle of rinse. lather, repeat, maybe it might be k'dai to try something different.

(the above is based on true life experiences)

Ok.... A bit of topic but an interesting read non the less.
I had a fall right after yom kippur. That really pissed me off, just when I was white and clean from shmutz. But bh since sukkos been clean also hoshanoh rabba is like yom kippur so I guess I got a second chance. Either way I used to try and test myself without filters if I would fall thinking that I wouldn't, and I wouldn't for a few days but then... So I realise that it's not stam a yh but we need to make it as not accessible as possible ie filters. Imyh I'm installing filters on my art phone animal see what happened from there.
btw its really touching to see so many ppl care. Really.

Great atitude, just get back up, KOT!!

Put in those filters, first thing is to make sure we're sober, as Dov says "Clarity doesn't bring sobriety, sobriety brings clarity".

A Git Kvittel

retuning,
sorry that your thread got hijacked.

Put on those filters. There is no extra brownie points for being clean without a filter, just a greater chance of falling. Keep that stuff as far away from you as you can is a good start.

Good Luck