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TOPIC: Need your opinion. 4814 Views

Re: Need your opinion. 14 Aug 2013 23:35 #216197

InternalControl
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Dr.Watson wrote:

While I feel inadequate to answer this question, some thoughts do come to mind.

First of all if a schizophrenic is eating treif due to their illness then I think they have a chiyuv to go to a psychiatrist to seek proper help. In fact, even if their illness was not causing them to do any aveiroh at all they would still have a chiyuv to seek proper help.

Second, if you can get a hold of R'Twerski's book ''Self Improvement? - I'm Jewish!''. In it he addresses this exact point. He basically says that a true torah lifestyle would be the best possible lifestyle, but it has to be 100%. Halfway measure avail us nothing. If a lock has a code 6-1-3, you can't open it with 6-1-2. The 12 steps is completely in line with the proper torah perspective and therefore it should be embraced by frum jews as part of torah observance, not shunned as an alternative. This is my understanding of what he said.

Torah does not simply 'treat the symptoms' as you put it. Living a proper torah-true life is living life the right way, which is what the entire program is about. 12 steps is part of that. It's all about living life the way Hashem intended.

If are saying that if schizophrenia is causing one to eat tref, he has a chiyuv to see a psychiatrist, would you apply the same logic to an addict whose illness is causing him to be oyver MZL and other issurim? Does every single person on GYE have the same chiyuv to see a psychiatrist you are talking about? I hope not, because I did not see a psychiatry endorsement anywhere in the Torah. The person has a chiyuv to find a way to help himself that works. This does not mean psychiatry for everyone.

12 steps is probably as much part of a Torah lifestyle as any other medicine or therapy.

I hear your point regarding "half-measures," "going all the way," and the example with the combination lock, but there is no universal and "right" combination for Torah observance. There are many ways to Torah and all of them work. The question of what is an authentic Torah lifestyle and what is not is probably outside the scope of our discussion here.

On a non-related philosophical note, it is not simple to follow a single derech in the Torah when you see so many good things in other Torah approaches as well.

Last Edit: 14 Aug 2013 23:36 by InternalControl.

Re: Need your opinion. 14 Aug 2013 23:45 #216198

InternalControl
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Machshovo Tova wrote:

Speaking of Rabbi Twersky, it's kedai to mention that in today's edition of the weekly Homodia (English), he started a new series on addiction.

In this first piece, he defines 'addiction' as when one has a bad habit which he tries to control and is unsuccessful. Simple.

He goes on to say that many addicts manage to overcome their addiction on their own (he uses the example of addicted smokers who stop cold-turkey and remain stopped). However, many addicts cannot do it on their own and need outside help (such as 12 steps).

So to me that means that probably most people (if not all) on GYE "are" addicts. But some can manage it on their own and some cannot. (I know this goes against what many believe...)
MT

Following this logic, addicts can be generalized into 3 categories:

1. Able to stop on their own (say, before finding GYE).
2. Able to stop on their own with self-help tools and information (say, after discovering GYE and using various tools).
3. Not able to stop on their own. Require outside help (such as 12-steps program, therapy, etc.)

So, if I am not in category 1 and 2, I am necessarily in category 3. This thought makes me very uncomfortable, because it exposes my extreme weakness and the advanced extent of my problem.

Very uncomfortable, but apparently this is a fact of life.

Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 00:01 #216200

Watson
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I certainly don't mean that everyone with any sort of problem needs a psychiatrist, I mean that anyone with a problem has to seek relevant help and relevant solutions. That seems obvious.

What I said about the steps 12 being part of a torah lifestyle comes from R' Twerski who said that it is totally in keeping with torah: ''the content of the 12-step programs is not only compatible with Torah, but actually seems to have been adopted from Torah sources. I cannot understand how the founder of AA, Bill Wilson, had access to concepts that we find in the Talmud and the mussar writings.''

I really don't understand what you mean about there being ''no universal and right combination for Torah observance'' or what that has to do with the 12 steps. Actually I'm not quite sure what you're getting at at all.

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Last Edit: 15 Aug 2013 00:08 by Watson.

Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 00:18 #216203

Pidaini
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I may have this wrong, but I have heard it from other 12 step followers. The 12 steps are designed to lead a person into actually living a life that is trully run by Hashem, without one getting their selfishness involved.

Namely Step 3 "We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."

What can be more basic for a Torah based Jew, for whom it says that Chavakuk declared the one and only mitzvah that a Jew needs to constantly remember and master is Emunah?

It may be sad that we have to come to this point to be able to learn the truth. But we should thank Hashem for the opportunity that we have to be the ones out of many many many, who can truly live with complete Emunah!

Yankel | My Ladder | Talking to Hashem
I'm just a dude, another guy on this bus.

Have a great day, unless, of course, you made other plans. ~ obbormottel
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Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 00:29 #216204

InternalControl OFFLINE Junior Boarder Posts: 24 Karma: 1	I am not trying to get at anything. Just typing out my thoughts without any particular aim. Trying to stay in touch with people like me. Thanks for listening and participating guys

Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 00:35 #216206

Watson OFFLINE Platinum Boarder Posts: 1280 Karma: 85	keeping in touch with people is great. Do you use the instant chat? Do you have people to talk to in real life, a sponsor or recovery partner?
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Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 00:40 #216209

cordnoy
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Doc: I notice you do not use the instant chat...at least that is what it seems to me. Do you have assistance when you need it? Do you have who to reach out to, either a live person or thru the electronic media?

My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
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https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/210029-Tryin

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Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 00:45 #216210

Watson OFFLINE Platinum Boarder Posts: 1280 Karma: 85	I don't want to use the instant chat because I'm worried that I'll be on it all day. I use the forum quite a bit, I post almost every day and I call the phone conferences. I recently got a recovery partner and we agreed to call each other if we need to. I've asked a few people to be my sponsor as well but so far I haven't got one.
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Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 00:51 #216211

cordnoy
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id offer, but I haven't done 90 days yet.

b'hatzlachah

My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads: Mikvah Night - Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Last Page

https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/210029-Tryin

Warning: Spoiler!

Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 00:58 #216213

InternalControl OFFLINE Junior Boarder Posts: 24 Karma: 1	I really need a partner and a sponsor to talk with. I have requested from GYE partner program and have been waiting for a while, with no response. If you guys can help me find a partner and a sponsor, I would appreciate it. I feel that I need it!

Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 01:15 #216214

Watson OFFLINE Platinum Boarder Posts: 1280 Karma: 85	Have you signed up here: guardyoureyes.com/component/partnerpro/ btw, what country are you in?
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Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 01:27 #216217

sonoftheking
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This is the question that lots of people including myself have, I keep on trying to succeed and it seems elusive. How can that be? If i try all I can (at least thats what I may feel)how come it doesnt work, and what is the purpose of the struggle if I feel like I am going in circles? R. Tzvi Meir from yerushalayim explains: The point of it all is not always to succeed. To the contrary, Hashem has more pleasure from the person that in spite of his repeat "failures" he dusts himself off and tries yet again and again and again more than the pleasure that he derives from a person that is "succeeding". Hashem wants it exactly like so. He likes to see how a yid can continue toiling in this struggle, while continuously falling, and not even feel ANY personal reward psychologically/emotionally, and in the face of all this torment, continues fighting. Theres no greater pleasure to him that that of this pure SELFLESS yid. This fundamental concept, inevitably will with time push the yid up to the greatest heights in this battle. It has bh worked wonders for me and lots of others.

Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 01:33 #216218

gibbor120 OFFLINE Platinum Boarder NEVER EVER GIVE UP! Posts: 5251 Karma: 166	cordnoy wrote: yes, He is a Tov and Meitiv, but there are onshim as well, and heck I deserve it; my family doesn't, but I sure do. So why should I think that all that is happening is for my good? Why do you say that an onesh is bad? What do you think the point of an onesh is?
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Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 02:07 #216219

chesky
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cordnoy wrote:

chesky: I hear all your words; I just don't feel it
is He watching over us? Of course
Every second? definitely!
Is everything for our good? that's a loaded one!
yes, He is a Tov and Meitiv, but there are onshim as well, and heck I deserve it; my family doesn't, but I sure do.
So why should I think that all that is happening is for my good?
And besides, who is the "me"? my guf? my neshamah? as a matter of fact, "who da hell am I anyway"?

Nu. Everything you say is correct! I had and have similar issues

But today I live with one difference.

TODAY I KNOW THAT G-D LOVES ME UNCONDITIONALLY.

And I can talk to Him whenever, whatever and however. I know that G-d loves me whether I got up for Shacharis on time this morning, whether I learnt with my chavrusa, even if I yelled at my wife and kids and even if I masturbated and watched porn the whole night. He is my Abba. A father may get angry with a son, but he ALWAYS loves him.

Schar nd Oinesh? That is a different issue. I will leave that to Him to decide, thank you. Just for today I want to LIVE. And living is by connecting with my Abba.

I became aware of my screwed up thinking when I was posting on GYE three years ago, thanks to Dov, Zemmy and others, but I doubt I would have been able to put it into practice without SA.

Re: Need your opinion. 15 Aug 2013 02:12 #216220

chesky OFFLINE Gold Boarder Posts: 213 Karma: 14	Oh, and just to avoid any confusion. There is nothing heilig about "connecting with HaShem". It is just plain and simple relating to him at least like I would to my father. And, of course genuinely believing that HE CAN help me even if I am completely convinced that nothing in the world can.