There once was Cordnoy, a fellow with rhyme,
Wanted to pray but it was never the time,
Found an awesome sponsor,
To help deal with his monster,
Now his calls out to Hashem are sublime.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

This needs no source.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

This needs no source.

Some people are bothered by the language used here, which implies that we only pray for the knowledge to carry out Hashem’s will, to the exclusion of praying for things like patience, for a new mini-van, or for money to support one’s family. Certainly, this is not the intention in these words. The authors are trying only to imply that one should daven to Hashem only for things relevant to serving Hashem, to the exclusion of things that are unnecessary and distract one’s self from his true purpose in this world. The Zohar says that Jews who pray to God on Yom Kippur for things they want, but without the intent that they need these things in order to serve God, they are like dogs that bark to their master “give, give” (source-see Tikunei Zohar, Tikun Vav).

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

This does not need a source.

We now prepare ourselves for the conclusion, and that is that there are some who still disagree with the 12-step methodology, and then there are those who claim that the correct way to cure this addiction is thru Torah study.

cordnoy wrote:


The reason some people are bothered by it is because they dont understand how HIGH of a level that sort of prayer is. They lack the faith to see the truth in its words. Ill give you an example from your examples. Patience. Overall, yes, patience is a virtue. One should want patience. But when you recognize that Hashem is really the One who determines if you have patience or not, (just like He is the One who really keeps us clean and sober) then any moment you didn't have patience, you should thank Hashem for the lack of patience. Yes, you read that right, Thank Him. Because He always knows best and does what's best, and if He gave you a lack of patience in any one moment then that was truly for your best.

Hashem's world is PERFECT because HE is perfect and when one davens and says, "please give me patience", one is making the statement that his/her lack of patience is NOT GOOD. And that is a cry of complaint against Hashem. Hashem will answer one's prayer for patience because ultimately striving for any of Hashem's middos is a goal He set for us.

But real faith in Hashem is thanking Him for the Good and the Bad. Thank Him for when one has patience and for when one didnt have patience. Because they were really both for one's best! Thats true faith and the SA book says something similar. If you need the exact quote and page, tell me and I'll post it for you. These are also the ideas of Rav Arush in his book, The Garden of Gratitude. A tremendous read.

Thanking Hashem for what one's lacking brings about real miracles. I have my own stories where I've seen this come true. Recovery Continues also has a story about an addict who realized that thanking G-d for his "bad" feelings was the proper route. Again, if you need the story title, just ask.

I hope that helps, and I hope you've been trying pray. I've been praying for you!

Edit: Try thanking Him for your unwillingness and lack of desire to do more personal prayer. Then see how He opens your mouth for you! :-)

Sorry, I don't know enough, and what I am about to write might be regarded as borderin' on kefirah to some (although not to me at all - there are other times that I accept that title, but not for what I am about to write), so reader be warned; I am writin' the way I understand it, and what I have heard from my Rabbeim and Rabbonim and what I see in the seforim, but it might be my interpretation, so take it or leave it. I am writin' this, however, for the post above, from a well-meanin' inspririn' individual ticks me off, and I don't think it's accurate. Once again, he might be correct, and he is certainly well-intentioned, and I thank him profusely for prayin' for me and others, and even inspirin' me for personal prayer. It is in spoiler mode, for you do not need to read it (not that you have to read anythin' I write), and it is your choice to click on it just like any other 'click' (and of course, if you do click on it, God wanted you to click it). That bein' said....



My apologies once again.

I do love you.

cordnoy wrote:

How did that "g" sneak in there? Are the mods sleeping on the job?

cordnoy wrote:


IMO this is the opposite of step 1.

After years of trying every method I could think of (literally hundreds) to keep myself sober and failing, I have come to realise that I cannot keep myself sober. At all. Period. I am simply not in control. It's literally impossible for me. I speak for myself only.

So it cannot be my job to stay sober. G-d would not give me a job to do that was literally impossible. Therefore it cannot be my job or my responsibility.

When you say G-d helps, you make it sound like we're the ones doing it, He's just helping. That's the opposite of what's really going on.

It is His responsibility. Our job is simply to follow His direction as best we can. That bit alone is our responsibility.

Lemoshol, last week I had to do a job at work that was too hard for me at my level. I work and stressed and tried everything and couldn't do it properly. Suddenly my manager walked in and came over. Immediately the stress vanished, it was no longer my responsibility, it was my manager's. So he sat next to me and told me what to enter into the computer, line by line, till the job was done.

Technically I was doing the typing, a monkey looking at this would assume I was doing the work, it even bears my initials. But far from my manager helping me do the job, in reality he was actually doing it and I was doing nothing but following direction.

As the manager it's ultimately his responsibility to make sure all the jobs get done. That doesn't mean I don't have to do anything, I have to do my work as best I can, but at the end of the day, the success or failure of the team is not up to me, it's up to the manager.

Step 1 is realising I am not in control over the success or failure of my efforts. Step 2 is realising that I have a manager. Step 3 is being willing to follow His direction.

thank you

slight disagreement and only for the true addict.

if His direction would be simply to do this or that, your mashal would fit completely, but that is not the case, The instructions and guidebook are somewhat vague, certainly when it comes to this behavior and how we are to stop it.

So here is how i understand it: I am not in control over the success or failure of this particular mission, but I am in control regardin' the paths and methods and effort I choose to enable Him to manage.

As I quoted before, and I will again here, this is only for those who are completely addicted and lost their bechira on this. for all other people and other matters, there is bechirah and we choose to be the manager over patience and anger and compassion, etc.

Here it is again from Rabbi Tanenbaum:

Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but I think you mean that the manager delegates, rather than micro-manages. He makes it known what to do but allows me to choose how to do it. I have the freedom to do things the quickest way or the slowest way, or even not at all. He doesn't take it personally, He guides me with infinite patience.

I'm not sure. At the same time, He puts me in situations knowing in advance how I will react to them. I'm not smart enough to figure this stuff out, and I'm not convinced it would help one iota if I was.

cordnoy wrote:


I was with you until this point, but here I feel the need to say that I cannot enable Him to manage. He is the Boss, He decides what to do and when, He doesn't need my permission or actions to ‘enable’ Him to do anything.

At the same time I believe what they say, “Without G-d I can’t, without me G-d won’t.” He could, He just wouldn't. What would be the point? G-d doesn't want my addiction, He wants me, warts and all.

Close enough; I think.
I won't beat it to death.

As you and Gibbor and others wrote several times (with mashal of carpenter); we have work to do...we don't need to try harder; we need to try smarter.

b'hatzlachah

I read this in 12 step literature over shabbos and it really struck a chord:




Speaking for myself, I would suggest that I don't need to try harder or smarter, I am powerless, no matter how hard or smart I try. I could be the smartest guy in the world (sometimes I think I am ) and I still would not be able to keep myself sober.

That's just my experience of trying to do this very hard and very smart. Heck, you yourself know how smart I can be when lust gets access to my brain. (Agav, you know the story of the two baal habatim in beis din, one held like the ketzos and one held like the nesivos. When it comes to money everyone's as smart as the ketzos and the nesivos put together. When it comes to lust, everyone's as smart as Socrates and Aristotle put together. But I digress.) At the end of the day, we all need to do what works for us.

tehillimzugger wrote:


sorry; not related, but in the perusal of old threads, I found this gem.
And besides, I'm allowed to hijack my own thread.
TZ was a master at this kinda satire.
Kinda miss him.

WOW, you're signature really grewsome since last time I saw it!!

There should be a rule that your post has to be longer than your signature.

(Did I just go against my own rules)

Yeah you did...
Gruesome!