holistic wrote on 11 Sep 2011 22:44:


(Then you asked an important philosophical question about Bechirah, which obviously is not that relevant to my/your actual decisions, but just 'philosophy'. And then you ended with a recap of what is really bothering you in a practical sense, namely:)




If blunt is what you like (as I do), then I will answer you the same way I answer myself, for your question screams at myself. And my answer works for me to help me accept the sobriety and sanity that Hashem grants me....and that is the only reason I call it an "answer". Cuz it works. If it didn;t work, it would be no answer, as far as I am concerned. Bear with me please, know that I respect you deeply, and here it is, be"H:

To heck with your worries about your punishments. Plenty of good Jewish people who are chayav misoh biday Shomayim for various reasons, are walking around all over this world and doing all kinds of great mitzvos. They are still part of His plan, and He still loves them and cares for them. You and I are not defined by our aveiros nor certainly by our onshim! Some of these people are starting Yeshivos or teaching Torah berabim, some of them are getting married right this very minute and looking forward to building a bayis ne'emon b'Yisrael. Some people who are chayov Koreis are saving lives in ambulances or hospitals, some ar davening at the Kosel. Some are here in GYE and saving families and lives by feeely sharing their experience out of love for their fellow Jew (and other suffering human beings). Some will be chazonim at your or our shuls this RH and YK. Some might be your parents, brothers, or sisters. Hashem can use anyone for His Will, not just Tzaddikim. 1- V'hu Rachum, 2- yichaper avon, 3- v'lo yashchis (see Mesilas Yeshorim on that passuk)!G-d is Big. There is a lot more to your life than your onshim. He never writes you and me off nearly as much as we write ourselves off! I think when we wallow in these issues, we are simply asking for permission to write ourselves off. And that is the very opposite of recovery.

Hashem did not create us to walk around pretending to figure out His business and worry about "punishments". That is HIS business, not ours. Ours is to do what we must in order to keep His Torah and be connected to Him. If something helps us do that, then it's good - if it draws me away from successful avodas Hashem, then it does not matter if it looks like Torah or comes from a sefer - it's bad. Spending time trying to figure out of the 'Heavenly accounts' just ruins people like us, so to me, it's bad. As you describe so well right here with your very well-stated questions, it paralyzes us. And Rabbeinu Yonah clearly wrote the third sha'ar of his sefer for normal people - not for addicts. Period. It kills addicts and they cannot serve Hashem with any focus on what looks like "punishments". Anyhow, for addicts, the slimy results of our transgressing His Will are evident enough right here in Olam haZeh! So what does He really want? Our awareness of "punishments" and fear of them - or our sensible relationship with Him and our true service? And does He only want the service of innocents? I cannot believe that, at all, and will not.

And secondly, who says there is such a thing as actual "punishments", at all? I say they are all Tikkunim, nothing more, nothing less. So it is for our good 100%. You may say that this is just semantics, wordplay. But I know it is not. The most basic truth that Hashem is only Good, has been twisted for most of us, for it works OK for many normal people. For addicts, it draws us only deeper into addiction - service of a god that seems to pay off more reliably...for a while.

My heart has a more basic question than yours about G-d and His ways: If He is perfect and needs nothing, then what is this silly business about "hurting" us for the crime of not listening to Him? For what? And if we get the 'punishment' after we die (gehinnom), then of what use is punishing us any more? So we learned 'not to mess with G-d's Will' ever again? He needs to 'get back at' us? We are already dead for crying out loud! But more to the point, what does He Will any punishments in the world for? And saying that He is 'stuck because of rules He set up previously', or some 'big cosmic balance sheet of good and bad' is just a pat answer, to me. Though they satisfied me when I was 16, my heart does not accept such 'convenience answers', any more.

So I believe that He gives no punishments at all, only tikkunim that we need, because He loves us and cares. They are our chance to get better somehow and help us in some way. Most of the time we cannot fathom how they help anyone. But they must. We are Jews. Hashem echod. K'sheim shemevorchin al a tovoh, kach mevorchin al haro'oh. And will never 'punish' in the literal, plain sense (look up the word in a dictionary), and has never 'punished' you nor me for our sins, ever. He loves us and created the world for and out of this love, as it says: Olam Chessed yiboneh.

So then what of the Kitzur? What of the onshim in the Torah b'Ksav and b'al Peh?

I must accept - and I believe this is what it means to be a Jew - that all He does is really Chessed. There is nothing else, to  Torah Jew's mind. What you refer to as "punishments" are for a good purpose. They might as well be called "rewards". Whatever He meets out to us in response to our sins is always and was always the very best He could ever offer us as an expression of His Chessed. This is what "Hein yikteleini - lo ayachel" means. It is what the mishna means when it tells us to love Hashem "Afilu im Hu noteil es nafsh'cha".

There comes a time when an adult Jew - particularly if he is a hopeless addict such as myself - must grow up and accept that though he will never understand it in this lifetime, there is nothing - nothing that G-d does that is a "nasty" - it is all Chessed, love, kindness to us. Some Chessed is meguleh, and some is mechuseh. (May it always be meguleh!)

And this is the 3rd step. I put my full trust in Him, that He does take the best possible care of me, for I know that He knows best. Like "Na'asseh v'Nishmah". Whether I am (R"l) chayav this, or chayav that - whatever it is, I am privelidged to be the object of His Will for me. My main avodah is to be happy to be that - and that is what "gam zu letovah" means. Period. That is what living as  Jew is supposed to mean, and not much more, as far as I am concerned. It is my main kavonoh in Sh'ma Yisroel, on a good day.

How you or anyone expects to ever have a serious relationship with their G-d while believing He really is mean to us, I cannot understand. It is like saying that Yir'as Shomayim means to be afraid of G-d like we are afraid of a mugger in the street, or of a rabid dog! "Look out! Don't cross His Will, or He might bite you! He's got a temper, you know." Excuse me, this is G-d we are talking about here. Why would He ever do anything to hurt me or you? Everything he does must be good for me - actually the very best...under the circumstances. But 'what is really best for us' hurts a lot, if we choose sex with self, lying, revenge, jealousy, and lusting.

The corollary of this is that there is 100% personal responsibility for everything that we do. In other words, the way He will relate to us is always the very best He 'can': so if we sin, it will be in one way - not a very pleasant one, usually. For we will need to dig out from under the separation we caused, or else we are living a lie! There is no turning back once we act out, eat treif, or lie. There will have to be a tikkun for every little wrong we commit. Just like in a marriage: the damage occcurs from the lying, whether we are found out, or not! The lying always rots the relationship from the inside. There are always repercussions from what we do, because they will need tikkun.There is no escape at all from "paying the piper". That is the way it must be if we are to have a real relationship with Him, which is all that matters (per Chovos haLevavos).

And if we follow His Will, His Chessed looks and feels different. It's sweet, even to our bodies.

Sorry about the megillah, but I couldn't do any better. Have I made anything clear?

Hatzlocha.

Dov, that's one of the best Mussar shmmozes i've heard (read) in years!

I'm not sure who to thank more, Dov or holistic.  Gadol hameaseh yoser min haoseh.  Thanks for that very strong dose of Dov.  That was at least a double dose!

thank you rebbereber=dov

hashem is not "out to get us"

onshim is his business

our business is to live life in the darkie noam he prescribed for us in the torah


just a quick bards synopsis of dovish

dov u are gevaldiggggggggggggggggggggggggggg

Oh man, I don't know what to say.

In all of your answers there is enough to keep me occupied for a long time. I do not trust myself to  respond to what all of you have said. I really have to think carefully about it all first.

But The one thing that I do want to say is Thank you for taking me seriously and answering me in such a heartfelt and genuine way.

My, I wish my shul was like this. If it had 1/100'th of your genuiness, openess, and heart, then I know I would not be in the  position I am in now.

The best one could ever expect from another human being is that they should reflect Hashem's chesed to others. I think that's how one can come to believe in the Chesed in the first place.

If Hashem's chesed is the source and inspiration for the beauty of this Kehilla, then I think I have nothing to worry about and everything to commit myself to.

Thank you once again.

Hashem's Chessed is the source of everything, and yes, this is a great kehila (even without tequila)!

Take it easy.

Dov- great chizuk for the yomim noraim. what a beautiful way to understanding who is going to judge us in a few days.

bardichev wrote on 12 Sep 2011 21:09:


Bards- you need to read the whole drasha thing to give your synopsis... not the first 3 lines.

dov wrote on 12 Sep 2011 20:35:


Sorry but this is simply not true for me. You may be a strong man who only wallows or gets caught up in these things as "permission"... For me its not that simple and the inherent judgement of your words serves as a turnoff. It is wrong for me to be told that it is my 'fault' for getting caught up in these things it is the opposite of recovery for me...

heuni memass wrote on 13 Sep 2011 16:53:



i b a dd

I have a thought about all of this in terms of the proper emotional approach to our imperfections and deficiencies.

For Pretty much all of my Jewish life, I saw God as the one who rewards and punishes. Free choice was my responsibility and if I chose wrong then I would have to accept the consequences. The problem was, especially when it comes to these sins, that the potential consequences were so severe that I would either get weighed down and completely demoralized or I would "numb out", distance myself from thinking about G-d, Kedusha, or even Judaism as a whole, and tried to convince myself that I could live a happy and productive life without submitting myself to all the guilt that came with sinning. All that came from this was alienating myself from my religion while at the same time, being completely unable to come to terms with my addiction. Even to this day, I honestly have no idea how to relate to G-d in a positive way. 95% of my relationship is based on this whole dynamic of reward and punishment.

So I was thinking all day today about how to come to terms with the reality of sinning and being susceptible to punishment (that the Torah mandates), while at the same time coming to an appreciation of God as pure Chesed and a relationship with God suffused with love. Even if I overcome masturbation, there will be plenty other sins that will come my way that I will need to deal with so I think, for me, it's really important to work this out.

This is quite preliminary but I thought of an analogy from physics. One of the great paradoxes in physics in this century is that light is both a particle and a wave. It's a paradox because the two are mutually exclusive. A particle behaves like a wave and wave does not contain particles. It's pure energy. The bizarre thing is that if you investigate light looking for particles then you find incontrovertible evidence that that's what it's fundamentally made of. If you investigate light where you look for a wave then you find incontrovertible evidence that it exists purely as a wave. So the fact that it is both a particle and a wave is both impossible and necessary to believe at the same time. The amazing thing is that light gives you PRECISELY WHAT YOU ASK FOR AND LOOK FOR.

Maybe it works with God the same way. If my tendency and my personality is to look for reward and punishment then that's what I will find and I will simply not feel any Chesed. I will praise my accomplishments and feel terrible about my failures, cycling back and forth between one pole and the other. On the other hand, if I commit myself to look only for Chesed (no matter what I do that's wrong); also, if I commit myself to being nonjudgmental and acting with Chesed towards others; if I truly LOOK for it in myself and in G-d; then no matter what, he will give me what I asked for. My life will no longer have this awareness of reward and punishment (even if I sin). It is there for the asking; it is even real but in some essential it is not negayah to me.

I think the Baal Shem Tov said something like "G-d is my shadow" he will become to me what I commit myself to becoming to him.

Does any of this make sense? I would love to have your feedback.

Tried-123 wrote on 13 Sep 2011 19:11:
Not getting your message here. Are you saying that it is indeed often destructive to wallow in the ways G-d 'will get back at us'? Or are you saying that it is fine?

What I think you are saying is that you agree it is a bad idea to wallow in Hashem's business, but that it is very wrong for me to say that it is our fault for doing so.

Is that what you mean?

You are OK with the main ideas in the post, though?

"A strong man"? No. But when these things do invade my thoughts, which happens naturally every now and then, I react to it the same way I try to react to everything that puts me emotionally off-balance: Steps 4-7. And in a hurry. And it often works.

No intention at being judging of you, sorry for coming off that way, Tried-123. Why would I ever do that to you?

holistic wrote on 13 Sep 2011 23:01:


Dear holistic (whatever your real name is),

Wow. You write deeply and clearly.

Not being a Breslover, all I know of Rebbe Nachman is from some of the books. In one, he was quoted as saying something like "Hashem is also in Gehinom". It actually seems to be a mikroh molei in Tehillim 139: "va'atziyah she'ol, hinekah!"

What does this mean? To me, it means that He makes everything right. RMCh"L calls this "Sh'litas haYichud". In the end, Atzaso ta'amod - He always wins. So, He will fix me up so I will in fact be close to Him in Olam Habah. He could have created the entire world just for me. So he saves His world - my world - so His plan 'wins'.

The question, as you put it so well, is how I want the ride to be. Do I want to be a shutaf in ma'aseh beraishis (That is what this success story is)? Or do I want to be a more passive partner with Him in this (winning) plan? If I porn my brains out and go for the sex stuff instead of grow up and use Him, get closer to Him, and be a decent chap, then I will need lots and lots of tikkun. Maybe I will still need lots of tikkun. Be we pray for an easier trip, of course.

But He can never be the enemy, no matter what. When I feel He is the enemy (and sometimes I forget and do, as you describe, slip back into my old ways - the same ways that fueled my lusting and acting out!), then I need to get my head examined. I call a program buddy and have a talk. For one reason or another, I need these talks every week, sometimes every day. But the point is that they work, and my head is again screwed on straight, be"H.

We are never really off the "derech".

May we all recover each in his own way, and have an easy path in life today. In other words, keep on trucking. 

the yismach moshe writes: there is no punishments in this world, only in the next world, everything in this world thats hurtfull, is just hashem reminding us that we need to fix up somewhere.
like the sun shines everywhere, if you put a block it will temporarely not shine at that spot, hashem gives hashpoeos tovos, a steady stream of all the goods, and we with our sins block that stream flow, and create hurtfull reminders here and there, and when we remove that blockage, the flow will continue to come again.
the flow is NOT for our merits, its purely because hashem want to do with us non-stop goods, as long as we allow the flow to continue it will continue.

Holistic, that was a beautiful and clear presentation, and i identify with it to a great extent. seeing G-d as not being "out to get us" and/or a "wrathful old man in the sky" is exactly what the struggle is.

regarding looking for the good points in yourself (and in others) i would recommend seeing Likutei Moharan 1:282 Azamra. Reb Nachman told his followers to carry that teaching with them at all times, something he did not say about other teachings of his.

see also the attached piece from Sefer Musar Avicha by Rav Kook regarding rectification and how and if we should focus on it.

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 14 Sep 2011 15:15:

Sounds eerily like the serenety prayer. I knew they got it from us .