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why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"?
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TOPIC: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 19539 Views

Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 29 Aug 2011 21:21 #116809

  • gevura shebyesod
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kidushashem wrote on 29 Aug 2011 21:03:

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 29 Aug 2011 20:46:

kidushashem wrote on 29 Aug 2011 13:11:

Why is (almost) everyone scared of writing the full word "masturbation", "pornography"?
It always says "m******, P******" or something like that.
It's like "He Who Must Not Be Named", for all you harry potter fans

The point is, when you are scared of writing it, it seems to me like there's a form of denial going on. Like, subconsciously, you're not willing to admit that you're really involved with this stuff.
I feel very strongly that you should not be scared of saying it, straight out.
Can you imagine a psychologist saying "well, have you ever, well you know, done, um, P&M, YEAH, THAT'S IT! have you ever done P&M?"
If we were clean it would be one thing; I can hear that some people are so distant from it and FEEL that it's so dirty that it's like saying "CHAZIR" instead of "DAVAR ACHER".
But for us? Are we coming from a holy place when we don't write the full word, or are coming from denial?

I'd love to hear other perspectives...


To carry on the Harry Potter analogy (i'm a huge fan), Harry himself, the one who was fighting the evil head on, had no problem saying the word. Everyone else couldn't say it, because they were (maybe sub-consciously) in denial.

So too, we who know the true face of the evil that we face and fight, should not be scared to use the necessary words to express our struggle.

Gevura!


Nice! Now, how can we get horcruxes in there?


I wish I had a wand and I could say "Expecto Patronum!" every time the YH tries to suck all the joy out of me.

Chocolate really does work though 
!אנא עבדא דקודשא בריך הוא

וּבְיָדְךָ כֹּחַ וּגְבוּרָה וּבְיָדְךָ לְגַדֵּל וּלְחַזֵּק לַכֹּל


"If it would be so easy there wouldn't be a GYE, but if it would be impossible there also wouldn't be a GYE."
"Sometimes a hard decision leads to an easier outcome."
- General Grant


My story: guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/111583-hello-my-friends
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 29 Aug 2011 21:32 #116810

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Yossi.L. wrote on 29 Aug 2011 21:16:

I think it depends on each person. Some people, such as myself, although very comfortable with saying masturbation when necessary, still have a sensitivity towards the animalistic nature of it. Although we are among fellow addicts, and we all have excessive familiarity with both porn and masturbation, we still have retained the sensitive nature of these sins.

When I was a teenager I attempted to defy this sensitivity and use the words "sex" and "masturbation" regularly to try to justify my addiction. I would make fun of those that felt uncomfortable when I would breach these subjects. How beautiful it is that the pintele yid within me has come out victorious. Although my yetzer hare fought a draconian war to eradicate the shame that was naturally placed within us, ultimately David conquered Goliath.


wow, very interesting view.
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 29 Aug 2011 21:35 #116812

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Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 29 Aug 2011 21:21:

kidushashem wrote on 29 Aug 2011 21:03:

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 29 Aug 2011 20:46:

kidushashem wrote on 29 Aug 2011 13:11:

Why is (almost) everyone scared of writing the full word "masturbation", "pornography"?
It always says "m******, P******" or something like that.
It's like "He Who Must Not Be Named", for all you harry potter fans

The point is, when you are scared of writing it, it seems to me like there's a form of denial going on. Like, subconsciously, you're not willing to admit that you're really involved with this stuff.
I feel very strongly that you should not be scared of saying it, straight out.
Can you imagine a psychologist saying "well, have you ever, well you know, done, um, P&M, YEAH, THAT'S IT! have you ever done P&M?"
If we were clean it would be one thing; I can hear that some people are so distant from it and FEEL that it's so dirty that it's like saying "CHAZIR" instead of "DAVAR ACHER".
But for us? Are we coming from a holy place when we don't write the full word, or are coming from denial?

I'd love to hear other perspectives...


To carry on the Harry Potter analogy (i'm a huge fan), Harry himself, the one who was fighting the evil head on, had no problem saying the word. Everyone else couldn't say it, because they were (maybe sub-consciously) in denial.

So too, we who know the true face of the evil that we face and fight, should not be scared to use the necessary words to express our struggle.

Gevura!


Nice! Now, how can we get horcruxes in there?


I wish I had a wand and I could say "Expecto Patronum!" every time the YH tries to suck all the joy out of me.

Chocolate really does work though 


I'm so with you on the chocolate... I go through a full bar in one sitting. And ice cream, preferably hogsmead :D
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 00:27 #116830

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When I was a teenager, I would get excited and masturbate over reading the words "sex, masturbation, intercourse, puberty" etc in an encyclopedia. I remember going over those words in my head b'shaas ma'ase.
I didn't have quality pictures to work with, so the words had to do the trick.
I feel that on this forum, in addition to loshoin nekya, we also have to be mindful of potentially triggering someone with our vivid descriptions. The word p**n is still triggering for me. My reaction to it is "where?!"
As a side point on loshoin nekiya, the gemoro in Psochim which discusses this issue does leave room for using the actual word for something if the meaning of what you trying to say can be obscured. Which is why I am all for "rochel bitcho haktano" when it comes to discussing my fellow's shortcomings, lest he thinks I don't mean what I say.
Baby steps.
If the road is pulling you down, it's a sign that you are going uphill, so just press harder on the gas!

Have a great day - unless, of course, you made other plans.
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 01:27 #116839

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For me "P & M" is just faster to type. 
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 01:33 #116843

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Look what the gemara writes in Horayos on page 10 umed beis 2 lines from the end... www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=28&daf=10b&format=pdf 
...מנין שאין הקב״ה מקפח אפילו שכר שיחה נאה
Last Edit: 30 Aug 2011 01:51 by .

Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 01:48 #116844

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rockaway wrote on 30 Aug 2011 01:33:

Look what the gemara writes in Horayos on page 10 umed beis 2 lines from the end...


True. But on the other hand, The Torah does not hesitate to tell us the story itself exactly as it happened. So I guess it's OK to say things if it's needed to teach a lesson or some other toeles, but not to publicly memorialize it such as by giving a name.

BTW welcome aboard, Rockaway!

Gevura!
!אנא עבדא דקודשא בריך הוא

וּבְיָדְךָ כֹּחַ וּגְבוּרָה וּבְיָדְךָ לְגַדֵּל וּלְחַזֵּק לַכֹּל


"If it would be so easy there wouldn't be a GYE, but if it would be impossible there also wouldn't be a GYE."
"Sometimes a hard decision leads to an easier outcome."
- General Grant


My story: guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/111583-hello-my-friends
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 01:49 #116845

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struggler wrote on 30 Aug 2011 01:27:

For me "P & M" is just faster to type.


And easier to spell. See the title of the thread.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
!אנא עבדא דקודשא בריך הוא

וּבְיָדְךָ כֹּחַ וּגְבוּרָה וּבְיָדְךָ לְגַדֵּל וּלְחַזֵּק לַכֹּל


"If it would be so easy there wouldn't be a GYE, but if it would be impossible there also wouldn't be a GYE."
"Sometimes a hard decision leads to an easier outcome."
- General Grant


My story: guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/111583-hello-my-friends
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 12:22 #116859

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obormottel wrote on 30 Aug 2011 00:27:

When I was a teenager, I would get excited and masturbate over reading the words "sex, masturbation, intercourse, puberty" etc in an encyclopedia. I remember going over those words in my head b'shaas ma'ase.
I didn't have quality pictures to work with, so the words had to do the trick.
I feel that on this forum, in addition to loshoin nekya, we also have to be mindful of potentially triggering someone with our vivid descriptions. The word p**n is still triggering for me. My reaction to it is "where?!"

wow, I'm shocked. I guess I was being so insensitive in not realizing that the word itself can actually be triggering but now that I think about it, I guess I can understand it a bit. So tell me, would you like other people to not write the full word?
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 12:29 #116860

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I want to thank all the disagreeing posts thus far. I'm really starting to realize that maybe saying it straight out, is just feeding the insensitivity to these actions which we've been breeding all along. Maybe it is good to stop saying the word explicitly and try to regain some of that old sensitivity and naivete back. On the other hand, wont I be hiding from my acts if I act as if I am so removed from them? Should I wait until it's been a long time since I was involved with this stuff?
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 14:55 #116873

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Do you think that people who refrain from writing  christmas and jesus are in denial as well? How about people who write darn and shoots instead of the more vulgar alternatives? Or is it that they just find it distasteful to use the real words?
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 16:19 #116894

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the word chris*** on its own means being a believer in them ch"v, so its defenitly not right to pronounce it
however, the gemoro quotes, that anyone who knew "rochov vazoneh" m********d when they just said her name, because its live for them, so there is a full trigger in a word for some people
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 16:31 #116900

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JackInShteeble wrote on 30 Aug 2011 16:19:

the word chris*** on its own means being a believer in them ch"v, so its defenitly not right to pronounce it
however, the gemoro quotes, that anyone who knew "rochov vazoneh" m********d when they just said her name, because its live for them, so there is a full trigger in a word for some people

just the point I'm making, too; but, gevald, where is this in the gemoro? I think this piece may have some power tools for overcoming this kind of verbal triggers? (if gemoro still works for some of us)
Baby steps.
If the road is pulling you down, it's a sign that you are going uphill, so just press harder on the gas!

Have a great day - unless, of course, you made other plans.
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 16:39 #116906

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Megilah 15a (not quite half way down)
www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=11&daf=15&format=pdf

I'm not sure the gemarah will help you.  It may trigger you.
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Re: why be afraid of saying "Pornography", "Maturbation"? 30 Aug 2011 17:42 #116926

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I think there's a big difference between saying a name "B'yod'ah U'makira", and just reading or using a common verb. When I was still living in fantasyland, I would very often say a name to myself in order to awaken the associated fantasy.

OTOH, I too remember as a young teen using the dictionary for kicks. I didn't even understand all the concepts, but I knew they were dirty words.... I even used to read the siman in Shulchan Oruch at the end of Orach Chaim Aleph :-[ . Once i got older and moved on to thinking about other things, though, the words alone weren't enough anymore.

In my posts here I try to use lashon nekiya where I can, but sometimes I need to use the full word for emphasis or to make a point.

Gevura!
!אנא עבדא דקודשא בריך הוא

וּבְיָדְךָ כֹּחַ וּגְבוּרָה וּבְיָדְךָ לְגַדֵּל וּלְחַזֵּק לַכֹּל


"If it would be so easy there wouldn't be a GYE, but if it would be impossible there also wouldn't be a GYE."
"Sometimes a hard decision leads to an easier outcome."
- General Grant


My story: guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/111583-hello-my-friends
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