With a spirit of humility, care, and respect I would like to share some thoughts on lasting and internal change. 

My hiatus and subsequent extremely hectic couple of weeks has had me take a step back from my involvement here (I even missed the raffle). Catching up a bit, I’ve seen a number of posts that I had a desire to comment on over the past few days, but I decided to instead come here and share my thoughts. Because I only want to talk about myself, and share these as my own thoughts, I guess. Yet these reflections are actually the product of months of thought, and might be somewhat helpful to my friends. Sorry for lengthiness….

There have been posts about the disappointing experience of folks coming on the forums, feeling euphoric about finally breaking free from their problems for a time, and then eventually sadly coming face to face with the hard reality that the internal problem is still there. Alive and unfortunately kicking. There’s been discussion about how hugs and charts and accountability may be good for folks who don’t have a real problem, but are a waste of time if they distract you from taking the step to recognizing that you need meaningful, internal change. 

I don’t really disagree with the concepts. Change that isn’t internalized won’t last. True. We see this truth unfortunately all the time. Yes, you can’t “cure” an addiction with only a dose of optimistic positivity and encouragement. However, I strongly disagree with certain conclusions that could potentially be drawn from these observations. And I’m writing these words to champion the incredible value of these forums, which to my thinking cannot be overstated. 

First, the obvious. You can only take step two after step one. It’s very hard to push the “submit” button the first time, to come out of the shadows and start posting. It’s hard to admit you have a problem, that you need help. It’s terrifying to communicate with others, even behind a blanket of anonymity. The forums provide a critical first step.  And a warm welcome and positivity can encourage a fellow to stick around and learn. To make connections he wouldn’t otherwise make. To recognise the extent of his issues and learn about ways to grow. In this context it’s terrific, and I don’t think anyone disagrees with this. 

Now let’s talk about real and lasting change. Internal change. 

Pretty much everyone who comes here has a problem. I’m not going to get into a discussion about how to define addiction, but y’all would not be here without the fact  that these issues are creating problems in your internal and/or external life. Pretty everyone here has tried to fix their problem on their own, unsuccessfully.

That means that “just stopping” isn’t really one of the options for almost anyone who finds himself on GYE.

And, as with most problems, external changes alone won’t last. Because the problem is usually bigger than the just the symptomatic behavior. If someone has been using P&M to fill a deep aching need for years, against his better intellectual judgement, it’s unlikely that merely talking to people about how he really wants to stop will make real changes in his life. 

But here’s the thing. In all areas of life, real change is hard. Therapists all over charge a fortune to insert their sometimes-grubby fingers deep inside, and grope around in the aching psyche of confused and searching Neshamos everywhere, with varying success. There are diets and self-help books and retreats, life- coaches, and all-knowing experts, everywhere, each promising their own marvelous medicine for true and lasting change. Providing the patient/subject/client “Does The Work”. But what does that mean? 

The thing is - a human is a marvelously complex and baffling piece of work, fueled by a cosmic Neshoma, weighed down by childhood upbringing and history, his Yetzerim and personality, and the burdens of unrequited hopes and dreams. Complex situations and relationships. Sheifos, goals, setbacks. And life. People! It ain’t easy to fix em up. 

We are all muddling through, best as we can. That’s the honest truth. And it takes trial and error, and working from the outside to the inside.

Because we have to try. Genuinely. And we have to start with what we can wrap our hands and heads around. Because that’s the way practical people do it. And then make mistakes. And ask questions. And keep trying. And learn new things. And get excited. And get angry. And say really stupid things and sometimes regret them and sometimes not. And try again. And learn something new. And think and feel and try again. Sometimes it penetrates, sometimes it doesn’t. You have to try to use the best tools you can get your hands on, have mentors and friends, learn methods and self-realization. And with Siyata Dishmaya it will sometimes go it, and things will be different. If you keep trying. 

Trying, learning, and trial and error, with openness and honesty. Connection to good people. Willingness to learn from their experiences. And an attempt to grow, step by step.
In my experience outside of GYE- this is the recipe for change. And that’s what these forums are, too. 

I’ve read a lot about the 12 Step Program and have the greatest respect for it. It’s one way that a lot of people have achieved growth and change, if they work the Steps right. Therapy approaches problems differently, and there are different modalities, and a lot of people are helped that way too. If they Do The Work.  And learning valuable truths from mentors and seforim and friends, and working to develop new ways of living until you learn to change your thinking and paradigms, step by step, is a way that people can change, too. If they do the work.  There are other ways.  Yisurim can make or break a man, for example . And more ways. Maybe there are  as many ways to grow, and as few, as there are differences between men, at the bottom of it. Different things are needed by different people with different problems. The main thing, to my thinking and experience, is to keep working. Then you’ll eventually find the key that turns the lock, with Siyata Dishmaya. 

These forums are sacred and special and I love them with all of my heart. (Even at the rare times when people write infuriatingly stupid things). Because they provide tools for genuine change and growth in a way that I haven’t seen before. 

Some of the qualities in these forums are:
The forums are:  A safe place to recognize that your life has become (somewhat) unmanageable. A place to make friends by sharing and caring.  A place to connect with a fellowship of people who actually understand. A place to face up to your own mistakes, to recognize the hurt you’ve done to yourself and others, and to try to learn how to make amends. A place to learn profound and universal truths about yourself, and your life. About why you do stuff. And about Yiddishkeit. About marriage and relationships.

The forums are a repository of reams of pages of culled wisdom. A place to connect to people who have the most valuable commodity of all- life experience.

And maybe most importantly - the forums are place where people receive the gift of opportunity to actually meet with real people, when they get to that stage, which leads to indescribable potential for healing. A lot of the real healing with mentors here takes place offline, without a clear record in the forums (so if you haven’t yet, talk to someone).

All of this and much more are tools for genuine growth and change. But yeah, you gotta do the work.
The tools without the work won’t do it. But don’t blame the tools. 

What works for you? Here’s a good place to find out. There are many resources and things that have worked for people like you. And if what you’re doing doesn’t work, someone might point out to you that it’s time to try something else, and thank Hashem for that. If something’s working for you, share it, because it might help others. But please don’t think there’s only one prescription, or disparage the process that others are muddling through, cause that’s what we humans do. 

Saying “Anyone who was helped by method X obviously never had a real problem, because I had a real problem and it didn’t help me” isn’t only insulting, it’s also illogical and wrong, as anyone who’s read a lot of threads here knows.  Telling someone who is stuck that perhaps they should try something else, and suggesting what worked for you is a bracha and a promise of hope. I’d like to see more of the second. 

May Hashem bless GYE. I have a paper in which I have all the names of the guys I’ve met and many I’ve spoken with., and I daven for you regularly. Took it to Kever Rachel and Kosel too ( I davened for the founders and mods,  though I’ve never met them). Because I love you and hope that we’ll all keep growing together, more and less, each in his own way, with Hashem’s help. 

If you’re still here, thanks for listening 
מאן דבעי חיים

-----------------------
PS. At a later point I added in the following, that I posted on another thread:

Dov has written brilliantly about how secrecy is toxic and how coming out of the shadows and stopping to hide is a powerful part of recovery. He has also written how SA meetings are protected by anonymity but not secrecy, as folks meet real people who recognize them . As opposed to folks lurking on GYE forums, hiding behind a secret username. Now Dov admits that these forums are a great first step. His point is real. and worth thinking about, like everything else he writes (he doesn't need my Haskoma either).

However, I want to point out that these days, many folks on GYE are taking the step from being merely an anonymous user name to making a phone call. Most guys use real first names and real numbers eventually. Then, after a while, many have “graduated” to actually meeting others and creating genuine relationships, with mentors and/or friend. With real first and last names.

Dov’s important distinction between secrecy and anonymity is true. Meeting people in real life is an incredibly powerful step in recovery. And secrecy is toxic. I think it's fair to point out that forming genuine friendships and mentorships that include real names, real mentors, and real life are even more real than SA meetings, in some ways.

[I do not mean to say that this is for everyone. Don't do it if you're not ready, and also be careful to protect yourself.  I also do not mean to state or imply that making friendships on GYE and having productive in-person meetings and mentorships is a way to join or fulfill the 12 Step Program. It is not. And it cannot substitute for The Program, with its many other incredibly valuable aspects, because it doesn’t.]

My point is only this: Today, it’s not accurate to characterize GYE wholly as “hiding behind a secret username” because that’s not true for a lot of us.
As Cordnoy pointed out in his first impactful post on this thread [and I’m eternally grateful for that post], secrecy isn’t honesty. But meeting real people is. So I went out and did it. And honestly facing your mistakes, with a real person who knows your name and a lot about you is life-changing. If you haven't done it, you may want to consider it.

Thank you for those articles!

Lew's definition of addiction is the best I've ever heard.

true_self wrote on 12 Jan 2024 13:23:

Yes! Gorgeous.

guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/addict-or-not?category_id=30

guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/who-should-step-over-the-threshold-into-12-step-rooms?category_id=30

I found this from Dov just in time for this weeks torah portion:

"I see the analogy of yetzias mitzrayim applying to Hashem taking us out of the house of slaves, as most do. But with one difference that few choose to talk of:

I see the comparison of the addict (that means me) most closely to what Hashem did for Par'oh, rather than for the B'nei Yisra'el. Par'oh promises over and over again that he'll let go. But he holds on. He even swears that Hashem is 100% right, and that he is dead wrong, yet then hangs onto his beliefs that the Jews can't possibly be given up!

He makes a bankrupt fool of himself over and again, with every makkoh....and still doesn't just let go! How much he suffered! How unmanageable his life and kingdom became! Yet he just could not accept it.... this is my story, and that of most addicts I know. We are exactly the same. "Es asher his'alalti bemitzrayim" - "how I played with/made fools of mitzrayim" We were deep into dotage. It is disgusting, really. How I am 100% devoted and running after seeing the right picture of a selfish and shameless prusteh shiksa and feeling myself to my orgasm - it all becomes so precious and beautiful to me, even with the lying and fakery it usually entails, not to mention my little mess on the floor... How debonair.

Then Par'oh seems to finally hit bottom. He suddenly realizes that he cannot afford to keep holding onto his precious Jews! He runs to recovery. "Go! Go! Get out of my hair now!"

This time he is really contrite. He takes action, puts on a filter, tells his wife all about it, starts going to meetings, a shrink, whatever.

But it does not last long. As soon as he sees the first glimmer of freedom, he interprets it in the funniest way:

"I am cured! Maybe I was a bit ill before, but now, finally, I see things rationally and I am in control!" We see that Par'oh felt cured of his Jew-fetish! So...how did he react? The RaMBa"N points out, "what kind of fruitcake lunatic (OK, so I paraphrase a bit) would surge forward into a miraculously split sea after his quarry? Did he actually think it was split for him, to catch them?!" What does this mean? It means he was reduced to an idiot and a fool. A Captain Ahab crazy with 'Jew-fever', he was.

How did that happen? Didn't he just 'let those people go'?

Simple. He decided that if he were no longer sick - if he was actually able to let go of his Jews, that proves that he is no longer powerless over his lust to keep Jews. He has truly learned his lesson. So now he can recapture them and not fall prey to insane suffering - if they cost him too much next time, he'll just let them go! Just like the smoker: He says to nagging relatives who say, "Harry, you're addicted!" that he "could easily give smoking up at any time! So shut up!" Hmm. Touchy, isn't he? Then he coughs his guts up one night too many and decides to test himself. And behold! He gives it up for a whole week! Will this guy quit? Maybe. But if he is truly an addict, he will most likely take a lesson from his success that he can now control and enjoy it like a gentleman, like everyone else. Just a single smoke after dinner, once in a while. Of course, soon he is back at the races chain smoking again, and his 'control' phase is a distant memory a raspy year or two later.

Par'oh ran after his Jews as soon as he saw he could let them go! "If I can let them go, then why quit!? Control and enjoy it!"

Get it?

This is my story, and I am not alone.

Par'oh ends up in Nineveh, helping the horses (and people!) do teshuvah of some kind - and here we are on GYE helping addicts   (and lots of non-addicts, too) learn that it was never the last drink (schmutzfest) that got them in trouble, but it was always and only the 1st one! We - if we are indeed addicts - are powerless to control the first drink we take. That takes a lot of humility (or humiliation) to admit. Admitting we are actually powerless over the first drink is not normal. Normal people (even normal yidden!!) can take a drink of lust without ending up in the toilet bowl. Not me. That is the 1st step of a long, slow, and beautiful recovery.

Have a nice day!"

Enjoy!
I relate to this very much, does anyone else?
Gut Shabbos!

cordnoy wrote on 11 Jan 2024 15:46:


Thanks Cords. I have been doing a slow swim through your many threads and I have found them to be very enlightening.

I would love to hear the rest of your points - would you be willing to share?

cryingforhelp wrote on 09 Jan 2024 15:37:

I know the feeling, I have a believe that I'm a quite and closed person although it's not quite true, It's actually mainly my addiction that caused me to escape from people and closing up due to the fear of my innermost secret being exposed. I'm working on courage to open up despite the vulnerability and fear because I know that if I wont create the change for myself, nobody will. Brother, I know it's hard but you need some courage. I'll pray for you to get it.

All the best!
True self

Having this issue while married has lots of potential for ruining a marriage .
Most addictions can ruin a marriage . 
This one probably more so, being of such a sensitive nature.

Dear Brother,

Welcome to GYE and kudos to you for that commitment to work through this challenge.

I don’t have an answer to your first Q, nor will I answer your second Q directly…who has ever told its more important to stop this addiction before or after marriage? I never heard someone saying that, all I can tell you is that marriage doesn’t solve the problem so we gotta start working on yourselves NOW! Married or not.

Stick around brother, there’s a lot to learn.

Hi this is my first post here and I wanted to say that I have been struggling with pornography for quite some time now,and I have tried basically everything.But I will keep trying and use every tool on this website and everything I learned from the past to achieve 90 days. I also wanted to ask if I hashem has a wife for everyone, why doesn't he just give it to the person when he is suitable age, why does a person have to look and go through the trouble of finding a spouse. And also why is it important to stop this addiction before marriage?

azig wrote on 07 Jan 2024 21:55:

Did you decide your next action step to make this the best year?
Some suggestions:
- reach out to someone for accountability. 
- try the F2F course or the other GYE tools (see top menu)
- post often on this forum 

Probably the desire went away because of having done something that deep down you know is very wrong (you're words were rock bottom, correct me if I'm wrong). It may have triggered strong feelings of failure and perhaps even a mini depression of sorts. It happens on a small scale every time a person fails with p&m. That's usually when we ask ourselves, how did this happen again???

I would think that the greatest matanah is the diminished nisayon for now, it's a chance to rewire the brain and get rid of old habits. I would be very weary of the desire coming back at any moment and to be vigilant to build up a strong defense in the meantime.

One thing they teach alcoholics (so I've learned from AA members that I learn with - I'm not claiming anyone here is an addict of course), is that they need to avoid any form of temptation. Even things that are ok for healthy people, ie a l'chaim etc, is terrible for someone plagued with this sickness. I try this tactic as well when trying to guard my eyes on the street etc, that I am sick and any of this is very unhealthy for me even if ok for a "healthy" person (although I question if anyone is really 'healthy' when it comes to desire).
Others here feel this way about instagram and I couldn't agree more. I know it's hard to get rid of something you spend so much time on, it's like a part of you. Try deleting the app for a short period of time such as a week and you'll see that you have never been happier!

I've been struggling with this addiction since I was 13. I am now 42. I've had great days, weeks and months, but I always fail.  The worse feeling of all is when my wife found out. However, she has been very supportive in me overcoming this. I want 5748 to be my best year yet and I really need help. Help that my wife cannot supply.

I wanted to discuss the role psychedelics fit in my recovery. I want to add a bit of warning, but I believe the benefits far out way the risk so I don’t want to be overly cautious. It important to be aware of the risk and limitations so you can take the necessary steps to mitigate them. I did several years of research before I even considered trying it. It took me a long time to find a guide and took me many months before I actually went ahead and starting working with him. A good mashul is psychedelics are a very strong light in a dark forest. Theres a danger if you look at the light the wrong way it can blind you so you need an experienced person to guide you how properly use the light without getting harm. Once you get pass that the bright light shows the path you need to take to get out of the forest. If you just focus on how beautiful the light is without paying attention to the path you totally missed the point. If you attention, but don’t follow that path you also missed the point. Just because you see there’s a path out of forest doesn’t mean it’s easy and you won’t encounter thorns and other difficulties along the way or make a wrong turn somewhere. Integration is very important and psychedelics is not a short cut.

I want to explain what brought me to psychedelics and the role in my recovery. I had over a decade of working on recovery. I had a deep understanding of how my childhood impacted my SSA and addiction. Even still that did not  stop me. In fact some of my worst acting out happened after I had this understanding. I picked up many tools that I over the years that helped my deal with thought and feelings that caused me to act out. I was working with a therapist I was happy with and generally helped me stop the worst forms of acting out. But despite that every so often I would slip with masturbation and sometimes porn. For close to 30 years I used porn for escape and comfort and at the weakest moments I couldn’t get out of it no matter how hard I tried. I felt it was so ingrained in my brain. My intention was to get out of that pattern.

B”H it was very helpful. I feel like it reset my brain. It also brought everything together from the decade of work. Prior to the mushroom experience all my focus and energy was to not act out, shirmas enyamim was such a far out goal. B”H that’s now my main avodah. It also put together many of the psychological ideas I’ve been working in the past decade.

Another interesting effect is how ruchniyos has become so important to me. I little background… I grew modern/yeshvish, but developed an interest in Chasdius early on. During high school I was mesmerized by a book with stories of the Baal Shem Tov. After high school when I went to Eretz Yisroel to learn some of my biggest highlights was going to tishim and Chasdish davening. But I went to a litvish yeshivas and other than an occasionally learning a Chasdish Sefer or shuir it really wasn’t a main part of life. The process really began months before the mushroom experience… On my commute to work I decided to stop listening to the news instead listen to the shiruim of Rabbi Moshe Weinberger’s Yosef Hazadik Chabruah. Then I got a chabrusa on pinymus Hatorah. Then I started on Shabbos learning more chassidus. Then I had the mushroom experience and it just intensified this process. I can’t tell how many times I learn to a Torah or hear a shuir and it brought me tears. I wonder why I  didn’t hear these ideas years ago, but of course this is the rotzon Hashem it should be like this. As I shared I had a yirdia during the summer. Looking back It was because for various reasons I became lacks learning these things. Now I realize to not fall into the path of addiction and lust I must stay connected to ruchinyus everyday. It’s not optional it’s a must. In another post I’ll just seforim and mashpim that helped me.

In summation the mushrooms did 2 things. 1. Reset my brain and stop patterns I got stuck in. 2. Brought to the front stuff that was already there.

proudyungerman wrote on 03 Jan 2024 04:12:

Hi and welcome to GYE!
It's good to hear that you're really doing hard work to be on the right track!

Here are a few tips that have been repeated many times on this forum (so it's a sign that these things work) ...

CONNECT with someone. (I know you're doing this already)The opposite of addiction is not sobriety - it's CONNECTION. Addiction thrives on isolation! Find someone that you can share your pain and struggles with. And finally, have someone who can cheer you on and celebrate your both big and small wins with you!

Plan Ahead - Be proactive. As they say, "If you fail to plan - you plan to fail". The yetzer horah rarely tries to fight us when were doing well, he looks for opportunities when we're down and out or caught off guard. When we are tired, moody or stressed....

Take the journey one day at a time. You might have times of sheer elation, times of utter frustration and times of vulnerability when you’ll think that all your success might evaporate. Buckle up and get ready for the journey of a lifetime!

Don't become complacent; "I'm already in a good place, I don't need to be vigilant anymore". COMPLACENCY IS THE BEGINNING OF YOUR LAST CLEAN DAY. While this day can sometimes last a while, if we're complacent, it's just a matter of time before we get caught off guard.

Focus on the benefits of Kedusha. The struggle, then, is no longer between enjoying a certain pleasure and giving it up, but rather between choosing one pleasure in favour of another one. Sending ourselves positive messages and cultivating a positive attitude might be far more helpful.