ur-a-jew wrote on 20 Nov 2012 01:17:


Do you mean in different areas, or in the same area? If the latter then I don't understand.

Exactly, my own warped way of thinking. I should be doing "real" avodas Hashem instead quitting my bad habits.

Reb Dov thank you for your very speacial posts, each one helps me put myself into a better place.

by the way it's now 99 days clean !

Dear nederman,

I'd like you to consider a few things:

1- I don't believe that any kind of addict's real problem is 'aveiros'. Yes, all types of addicts do aveiros as part of their addiction pattern (certainly us professional masturbaters!), but we see again and again that it's just a red herring.

So the process of recovery - even though it leads to far fewer aveiros and a renewal of deep avodas Hashem - is not the process we know as "Teshuvah". For its motivation is derech Eretz (sanity), not Kedusha. And that's probably why the steps say nothing about sobriety, only sanity. Cuz they are not religious. Especially for the addicts I personally know who gain a tremendously successful avodas Hashem, the addict comes to see that his addiction was and is not a religious problem, and has no religious solution. That's my opinion and I live, daven, and serve Hashem that way.

No mental illness or allergy is a religious problem, and addict discovers so well that he is ill...unless he hasn't enough humility. Then he needs to hurt more...if he really is an addict.

2- I believe that regarding sin and sinners, Chaza"l and the sforim mainly speak of religious problems and solutions, not of addiction and recovery (though there are exceptions, as Rav Itamar Schwartz in Bilvovi notes in his hakdomah to "Da Es Atm'cho". But such guidance is very personal and usually only suitable for mouth-to-ear, as much personal practical application of Torah is). Of course, on a site like this, there is liberal interpretation of Chaza"lim and sforim, often applying their ideas directly to addicts and addiction. Nu. None of the guys I have come to know have succeeded saving themselves and their marriages that way, but I live and let live - very rarely do I try to trash a post that equates Teshuvah with recovery, for I want to stay sober. Besides, I may be completely wrong anyway. So I do what I know works, and there are ample talmidei chachomim who are either sexaholics in recovery themselves, or who have come in contact with them, who understand this.

3- I originally said this vort speaking face to face with a rather run-of-the-mill sex addict who sees his struggle as a religious one and does not stop. He has always seen it that way, and my experience tells me that this is exactly how he got so badly into the habit to begin with. He had been seeing hookers and would, of course, continue using them. I do better when shown my mistakes clearly - for in our sickness we usually focus on the way wrong things, which causes us to have to repeat the same cycle. (I assume your cognitive therapy thing sees the process a bit this way, too...maybe.)

So, I just wanted to show him that he can relax his death grip on his 'religious failure-hood'. I have learned that when people do that, they often become very ready to hold onto a solution that may actually work, rather than keep strangling themselves with their ego.

4- And most importantly: Hi! How are you?

dov wrote on 20 Nov 2012 10:34:


I disagree with this.




I believe that there is no such thing as addiction, it's just the failure to face the problem because of low self esteem, which is gaavah.




He doesn't stop because it hurts him to face the facts.




I loved this word, failurehood, thank you for coining it. I agree, but I carry this concept farther.

I am doing okay, B"H, I really like this new word :-)

one day at a time = 105 days clean

(we gotta stop saying ad meyah v'esrim!) :-X

Day 8!!!!

Yes I had a fall on Nittel Nacht being overwhelmed by a lust attack coming out of nowhere. As Rav Twersky quotes an AA meeting with one of the members says “ The drunk that I was 25 years ago will still drink today” .

The Sex Addict I was 132 days ago will still lust today!

Surprisingly, this fall did not result in a depressive, I’m useless scenario.
Yes, I slipped that’s not the issue, more important did I change during those 132 days?
I have changed; the most significant area is controlling my thoughts, not allowing myself to have sexual fantasies or even thinking about my wife in any lustful way. Any stray thought wandering into my warped mind I ignore, and do not allow the thoughts to blossom. For the most part this has been very successful and the major contribution to staying clean.

i really like your attitude
kol hakavod
keep on trucking!

Sweet!

Day 0xB = 11 days still trucking

I'm back!!! Holding at 10 days.

There's no way I'm going to get back on track without GYE! I can do 10 days, but after it's a real fight on my own.

I making a very big effort in controlling my eyes - the source of all evil. Finally coming to the conclusion I need to join one of the groups. HaShem help me. I need to find time.

Hey welcome back!

Is that 10 in decimal, hex, or binary (ch"v)?

Wow, so till 10 days u have it down....and this is day 10. You've come just in time, then! Hmmm...I wonder what being here will do for you? Hatzlocha with using this site to the fullest.

11 days in decimal.


Dov what are thinking?

I find that for me, the fight is in my heart, not in my eyes, at all. When I have the opportunity to see something that will make me miserable (by lusting, which always makes me [and probably you] miserable), I just close my eyes gently and move on.

But if the heart is wanting, needy, and greedy for sex and stimulation, then the eyes will find it, period. Running from that truth and trying to fight reality by proving to myself that I really am free of it by things like 'shmiras eynayim' will get me nowhere in the end, at all. That is the working rule for me and other addicts who I know. So in AA they say, "It's an inside job."

But on the other hand, the inside is only affected by the outside! Which means that taking sober action (not sober thinking) is the only thing that allows G-d to get me any better. So there are actions we take (opening up), and actions we do not take (like feeding our lust with porn and fantasy). So there definitely is a place for shmiras eynayim! The question is what are we using it for? Shmiras eynayim itself does not make one sober.

As I have posted before, Chuck C said wisely: "Sorry. We can't think ourselves into right living. We can only live ourselves into right thinking."

Love you green guy,

Dov