dov wrote on 13 Nov 2012 18:01:

Indexed.

Jerusalem-Talmud Learners Reunion
or
Jerusalem, Talmud-Learners Reunion?

TehillimZugger wrote on 13 Nov 2012 17:45:


Reminds me of the Rebbe Reb Burech of Mezhibizh. Hershel Astropolier once asked him, "Tell me O Rebbe, what is the difference in Kabbalah between 'roozin' and roozin deroozin'?" The Rebbe replied, "I don't know". To which Hershel replied, "I think I know. 'Roozin' are secrets which the Rebbe understands and I do not. 'Roozin deroozin' are secrets that even the Rebbe does not understand."

MT

I just made it up and the only criterion in the letters was that they did not spell out a dirty word.

Guard would never let me forget it...

Just Truck, Live Right!

'Roozin" I don't understand
'Roozin deroozin" I don't know that I don't understand

Think wrote on 14 Nov 2012 10:11:

Raisins?

TehillimZugger wrote on 14 Nov 2012 16:44:
...taste like purple jellybeans

two scoops!

ahhhh the good old days are back!

Raisin Bran!!!!!

Dear TZ and company. Hi there! I have no place to post this vort...I looked at the Beis Hamidrash, but the last activity on it was quite a while ago...

Hmm...

So:

Chaza"l tell us (that's what people say if they don't really know where Chaza"l say it! ) that a prime mandate of avodas is "Kadeish atzm'cha b'mutar lach". A certain chassidishe sexaholic was complaining to me that he finds no cheifetz in his avodah any more. He feels that this "sobriety uber aless" thing is not even coming close to real avodas Hashem. He felt pathetic and a bitter that his program people were telling him to "just make your first priority quitting your masturbation, your sex with hookers and your porn" (he was doing all those). He wanted to be a kadosh already! It was depressing! (He was also a big baby, but I didn't tell him that of course :-X - hey, I love the guy. He's an addict!)

So be"H, I pointed out that Chaza"l say "Kevan she'odom ovar aveoro v'shonah boh, naa'soh lo k'heter". Hmm...Na'asah lo k'heter. That means that though he is intellectually aware that it is still forbidden, to his own heart (his practical reality), it is in the category of 'heter'. Naturally, that is the main reason the habit is so hard to stop.

It doesn't take much to see that an addict is an extreme example of avar v'shono - ad absurdium, actually. And if it is in the realm of heter to him, then Chaza"l indeed do consider it avoda of Kedusha for him to stop using his porn, masturbation, and prostitutes. This is plain, for they say "Kadesh atzm'cho b'mutar loch". Why b'mutar loch? Why not "b'hamutar"?!

Because they clearly meant that this avodah of being mekadesh ourselves is dependent on what we consider heter on an individual basis. And this is a different aspect of b'makom sh'ba'alei Teshuvah omdim, ein tzaddikim gemurim y'cholim la'amod. For what is actually considered an avodah of Kedusha to this ba'al teshuvah - or in this case, the addict - is completely assur to the tzaddik. He cannot make Kedusha out of it. While the BT can.

And though recovery is not the same as teshuvah (for recovery is about Derech Eretz), the recovery of an addict from alcohol, heroin, or porn, are all the same in this respect: staying clean for the addict is considered by Chaza"l as kadesh atzm'cho even though it is a thing that is indeed pathetic for normal people.

So addicts have anothert things to rejoice over! True, there is nothing we can possibly do to prevent Hashem from loving us, but now we can even see ourselves as sneaking into the avodah of kedusha even though for normal yidden it would not be considered kedusha, at all!

We are perhaps the most fortunate segment of humanity, I figure.

Dov, that is just amazing!

dov wrote on 19 Nov 2012 22:34:


It's an interesting vort but pretty thin.




Only an apostate has individual laws. The rest have the regular Torah. I think an addict is almost an apostate, because he believes that his acting out _should_ be permitted to him. In other words, G-d is wrong. However since his self-esteem is based on what kind of tzadik he is he fools himself into believing that he has no choice. I think this rationalization probably makes him a bit better than an apostate, but G-d knows the truth in the end.

I don't think Chazal were just telling fools to sanctify themselves, I think they were telling everyone.

The idea of sanctifying yourself by withdrawing from what's permitted is separation, prishus. A person who thinks he has no choice but to act out can never reach prishus because he never reaches nekius, as explained by the Mesillas Yesharim:




Meaning if you need a neder to be sober, or you need to make the phone call, you are still rationalizing. Once you accept your own reality you no longer need those things.




As I said above the addict never makes kedusha (by which in this case is meant prishus) because he is not clean yet. Once he is clean of the belief that everything should be the way he wants and that he no choice but to lust, he can then withdraw from sex if he so desires. Now he is working on kedusha.




Chazal do call the nazir a kadosh despite the fact that he is not clean, but I think that designation has to do with the fact that he has extra halachos. But a person does not have to be an addict to be a nazir.




No, we are just a bunch of mama's boys who gain no real sustenance from spiritual endeavors but who think that we have to be spiritual to be worthwhile.

I'm not exactly sure of the point in your post. But I would question one of your premises. I don't have the marei mokom but Reb Yisroel Salanter says that if we where to work on perfecting zehirus before we moved on to zerizus we would never be done. Instead, we have to try and chose a little bit from each middah. So yes we can engage in acts of kedusha even if we have yet to master nekius.