bb0212 wrote on 23 Feb 2017 06:25:

Firstly, would you mind clarifyin' what your goal is (you don't have to; I'm just askin').

Secondly, whatever your goals and your methods, it should be with hatzlachah.

Thirdly, speakin' for myself, i will never push you into anythin'. I mentioned phone conferences; you said it's not for you now, I leave it.

b'hatzlachah

cordnoy wrote on 24 Feb 2017 14:34:

Thank you for your response. My goal is to refrain from mz"l. If I mess up, get up and try again. My goal isn't to never mess up again. The difference for me between the two is I don't expect to be perfect, I don't demand of myself to "never" fall. I guess it's kinda like odaat.

Secondly, thank you and amen! vchen lmar

Thirdly, very much appreciated. That response wasn't directed at you, sorry if you took it to mean that.

bb0212 wrote on 26 Feb 2017 08:13:

No problem.

UnderstoodI.

Good luck with that. When I tried it, it was pretty difficultI, and eventually, I wasn't able to live. I needed to live free for the day. But again, like I said, to each his own, and you gotta do what you gottaI do.

B'hatzlachah

cordnoy wrote on 26 Feb 2017 08:28:

Tyere Cords, I have some questions in the quote above. (I'm guessing that the questions can be answered with less answers than questions.)

I tried winnin' more than losin'.

After many wins and lots of losses, my life was still the same mess it was before, and even more so.

My mind suffered.

Family suffered.

Relationship with anyone that mattered suffered, including God.

I had no choice.

I needed to change.

Needed to be lust-free.

From my perspective, my life has improved dramatically in every way since starting recovery. Recovery for me has to start with the attitude of never acting out again. I have slipped up since getting into recovery and, as you say, got up and tried again, but my goal is be sober permanently. This has benefited my relationship with my wife, with my family, Hashem, my learning, my work, my mood and other things. For me, settling for less than permanent sobriety is like settling for half a life. It's like a drowning man who manages to get to the surface, takes a breath and says, that's so much better I don't even feel the need to swim for shore. That's crazy talk, no?

I say my goal is to be sober permanently but my mindset has to be one day at a time. ODAAT is not a gimmick or a trick. Some people think it means that if you can hang on for 24 hours you can keep hanging on every 24 hours. As Dov says, that's like saying if I can hold my breath for a minute, I can hold it for an hour, one minute at a time. No, eventually I'll need to take a breath, just like eventually I'll need to masturbate.

ODAAT means I'm focussed on living well today, staying calm, connected to Hashem and my fellow addicts. Not because ODAAT will keep me sober, but because today is the only day that's important. It's the only day my actions can affect. So it takes priority over tomorrow or 90 days. But the fundamental changes that recovery is focussed on helps me in every aspect on my life.

Let me ask you, why are you not shooting for permanent sobriety? Is it because deep down you don't think it's possible? You don't think it's necessary? You just plain don't want it? What is it?

I mean, I hear the argument of not trying to be a perfectionist, but permanent sobriety is not perfection. Believe me, it's possible to mess up a lot of things and still be sober. I see staying sober as pretty fundamental. You wouldn't say you're OK to eat pork every 90 days, or be mechalel Shabbos once in a while. That's not being a perfectionist, it's a matter of priorities. And, I don't know about you, but I keep one Shabbos at a time.

Hope that wasn't too rambling, or chas vesholom harsh, it certainly wasn't meant to be. Have a wonderful day my friend.

BB, when you use the feature and look up "Recent Posts", 
it says you are female. It used to say a few more people too...
so I guess it's getting better.
Not sure WHO to ask to fix this, or tell, so I'm writing here,
at least to tell you...and those who read this post.

Yosef Tikun HaYesod wrote on 26 Feb 2017 12:16:

Well, in our free society, I'll allow the forum to identify me as female. Or as a fish, or whatever.

Ftr, I'm a dude.
:-)

Watson wrote on 26 Feb 2017 09:06:

:-)

cordnoy wrote on 26 Feb 2017 09:05:

Not trying to win more than lose. Just trying to win. If I don't, I start again. If I'm serious about starting over, I need to be honest with myself and do what I think needs to be done to make it possible to win.
i don't think we're disagreeing here.Just semantics. But I may be wrong

I think I've lost you in the analogy. If I understood  correctly, treading water means masturbating a bit, swimming for shore means not masturbating at all.

So your plan is to masturbate every so often now so that you can stop masturbating entirely later.

Why not just stop altogether now?

Just asking for clarification. I'm sure I've misunderstood you.

bb0212 wrote on 26 Feb 2017 17:07:

Yeah, I think this might be turning into semantics. I think what you're saying is that you want to stop permanently, but you don't think it will happen just yet. You envision a few falls on your journey and you don't want to beat yourself up, but you are shooting for permanent sobriety.

Have I got that right?

If so, I don't disagree with you as such. Just know that relapse is not mandatory. You don't have to slip. I know many people who have not slipped since coming into recovery. I am not one of those people, but you don't have to make the same mistakes I did.

Watson wrote on 26 Feb 2017 09:06:

I love this post!

​Just wanted to say one thing where I think differently (not sayin' better or worse, just different): my goal and my mindset is to be sober today. I don't have that permanent goal. Regardin' the swimmin' mashal, I won't quibble about analogies.

Watson wrote on 26 Feb 2017 17:21:

By 'treading' I meant not focusing as much on shmiras einayim and everything else "less than" mz"l. Swimming to shore is conquering everything else besides mz"l. So far this has worked for me. According to the GYE rules, looking at porn is a fall. According to my rules it's a slip. If somebody wants to debate this with me, you can send me a PM or an email. If you want to debate this with others, please do so on another thread.  Please don't debate it on my thread

Masturbating "part time" doesn't help at all according to what we learned from David Hamelech. It just makes things more difficult.
I don't intend to masturbate sometimes. I was "ok" with looking at porn without mz"l. Take "ok" with a large grain of salt. If somebody wants to debate this with me, you can send me a PM or an email. If you want to debate this with others, please do so on another thread.  Please don't debate it on my thread


With regards to stopping permanently I definitely believe that it's possible and not unlikely. However, if I fall, my world doesn't fall apart. 

I think the above is all that I've been trying to say since the being of our discussion.

Watson wrote on 26 Feb 2017 09:06:

Cordnoy's post before this was very sa'tum, Watson flew in as the nosei keilim.

Just how I see it.

I shall PM you, BB superman