Workingguy wrote on 05 Feb 2017 12:54:

Wow!
i never would have thought he would say that.
Isn't that a crutch to perfectionism?
Why can't we admit that we are human and that we failed? That's life.

cordnoy wrote on 05 Feb 2017 13:17:

Cordnoy,  You obviously have a much healthier self esteem than most.....

It's not my self esteem that is relevant here. 

The attitude mentioned seems to be more of a cop out than a life time strategy.

It's not a strategy, it's just a way of coping with the inevitable(?) stumbles along the way. 

cordnoy wrote on 05 Feb 2017 13:17:


Don't know if it's me not being clear here, but what he was saying was the opposite. Most of us are way too hard on ourselves when we fall, and think that when we start being clean we will never fall again. Then, when we fall we are totally shocked and devastated.

Would we realize that there are instances that may be too tough for us and that we won't change overnight, chances are 1) that we'd fall less, and 2) that when we do we wouldn't beat ourself up for it.

One of his examples to me- someone with Same gender attraction had been doing really well for a long stretch. Then, they found themselves in a situation where they were able to take a peek at something that they shouldn't. They did, only for a few seconds. They felt so bad that they weren't misgaber, and it was bringing them down.

His take- the situation that they were describing was a high level of challenge (I'm leaving out the details on purpose) and if they would have a realistic view, they would recognize that this was a high level challenge and that considering the facts, they did really well.

cordnoy wrote on 05 Feb 2017 13:17:


Because most people aren't realistic and think that they can do more than they can. Because for most people, failure is so negative and they don't have Enough compassion for themselves and humanity. Hence, their perfectionism. It takes YEARS of work to get to a level where we can accept that where human and fail and not let that bring us down.

And so they look at the things that maybe weren't realistic for them to succeed as a failure, and then it brings them down.

A guy who's a sex addict and then finds him alone in a house for two weeks with no filter and it's bain hazmanim amd he has not much to do and his parents aren't frum and don't want to filter- did he have a human failure or was this one a little outside of what he's capable of?

He can't assume either way beforehand, but afterward, maybe this one was just too much for him.

Really, in a certain way Dr. Sorotzkin IS saying something similar to what you said.

Not sure what got lost in translation.

Workingguy wrote on 05 Feb 2017 14:40:


Wasn't me, I've never spoken to him. But I've been there, done that, around a million times. 

What got lost was as follows.

Initially you wrote that retroactively the challenge was too great and that explains the fall.

Afterwards you wrote that it is all part of progress. 

I agree with the second (although the first can be true as well). There may be times that it was beyond us, but that should not be our mindset. 

cordnoy wrote on 05 Feb 2017 14:53:


OK; now I understand we are it got lost. I thought I wrote a number of times that of course it can't be part of our thinking process before hand, but if that wasn't clear then I want to make it clear that there isn't a single source that says that you could think beforehand that you may not be able to succeed in this challenge

Hey all 
Had a great day till 5:45 when called wife to see how all is going and was told that baby stroller fell with baby in so please come home .... baby was fine but to calm wife waited by doctor for 3 hours.....B"H everyone is healthy but man what a test of patients 

MayanHamisgaber wrote on 06 Feb 2017 21:36:


It was a test of patients and a test of patience.

MayanHamisgaber wrote on 06 Feb 2017 21:36:

B"H
May God continue bestowin' His blessingsI on you.

And, you forgot to say: pardon the pun.

Amen and to you and all the gye family

Please pardon the pun  

B'hatzlacha

Day 50 
let's see what happens

B'hatzlacha

No need to pardon; it was terrific!