I am sorry if i sound am giving grades , i am actually not . I felt the need to express that the above post from Dov was one of the Best things i ever read in the forums ( dont get me wrong , all the posts from everybody are excellent ) there is incisive honest truth about our selves . I love truth and hate lies . But when truth has to do with my lustful ways and reasoning,it is often always overlooked . So many years spent living in a big lie . Who can say they eat their Shabbos Kugel leshem Kevod kedushas Hashabbos ? let alone lust and sex.

Hi 9494.

It is not only permissible to channel ones lust towards a wife, but actually like it says in shulchan aruch- its a miztva that we will get olam habo for. Ad that is rotzon hashem. He created the tayvo for us and he directed us how to to use the two pronged approach for it. The tayvo is not our opponent but like everything that god created is a tool for us with which to elevate the tayva itself and ourselves.

The point is not to say no the the tayva, but to rather channel the tayva.
Channel it permissibly and lshem shomayim. That turns the tayva into something holy. Thats the tachlis for every tayva as a whole. Every tayva is really a passion stemming from the holiest places up there that has sunk into the lower levels. We are to bring it back to its source. We are to realize that this passion is a passion that is to be used as passion to serve god. Its a passion that stems from a a passion to god, who is the source of this passion as well as all other passions.

The entire passion of man to woman is really the passion of hashem to us. Him being the choson, us being the kallah. Thats the depth of simchas choson vkala. That is the source of the passion a man has for a woman.
This technique of chaneling lust and elevating it into what it really is the ultimate avodas hashem applies to all of us, and even more so to people that are struggling, as they need to utilize these god given tools in an even more intense fashion.
That is what we dont find in any sefer of haskofo or otherwise , that the above concepts dont apply to what some individuals like to coin an "addict". As the seforim explain, that there is no such thing as an addict,no such thing as anything negative, as- Ein od milvado. He is the only one. He is good. So everything is good. Anything seeming contrary to that, is purely a godly made facade. Ein od milvado. Our job is to rip off the facade and not be fooled. All the seforim write that our mission is just that- DO NOT be fooled by all the godly designed gibberish looking and sounding ideas that emanate from the godly designed yetzer hora hocking a tcheinik in our collective minds.

When the voice(aka the godly planted yetser hora) in our collective minds starts sounding any thought with even the slightest of negative connotations, a voice(aka the yetzer hora) of negativity, a voice that propogates godly designed facades as if they were a reality of their own,as if theres any negative reality, as if theres a reality other than ein od milvado, a voice that is not of the comforting type, a voice that instead of realizing the truth - that "we" rock, as "we" are intrinsically a chelek elokai mamash.

"We" have the fire of god in us, that is the true you.
The negative traits, "addictions" and all other seeming godly designed negative behaviors are not us at all,(as theyre merely a facade to begin with) but a "ruach" shtus- not even a shtus, but a ruach- facade- that is completely foreign to us and never even remotely becomes part of "us" at all, and is similar to a diamond that gets dirty, as the dirt never becomes one entity with the diamond even to the slightest degree. Its the yetser horas aka godly planted design who is trying o confuse us into thinking otherwise, in order for us to elevate ourselves and correct our thinking.

These thoughts , as well as any and all other positive thoughts, are holy thoughts. Anything negtaive, is purely from the yetzer hora to tear us down in order for us to run like the wind as soon as we encounter the voice in our collective heads having any negative,critical,harsh,biting,uncomforting,non-soothing bent.

That is one of the revelations that was revealed to the Baal shem tov, that we are in the era of the exclusive track of fulfilling our mission via, drocheihu darchei noam.

That is why the chazon ish said that in our times, the generations are weakened to the point where the mandate of tochacha, and guiding another jew, cannot be done anymore, as we dont possess the know how any longer of doing that effectively.
That is why the only true way of moving ahead, is via - eein od milvado- he is good, so our message is always- all is good. That is the tool that is to be used exclusively.

As the story with the chofets chaim goes. There was this bochur that was 'addicted' to chilul shabos for many years. Nothing worked in terms of getting him back.
The chofetz chaim met him one day in his office one day. He was in the office for 2 minutes and never committed chilul shabos again. He relayed to his peers how he sat across of the chofets chaim. The chofetz chaim did not say a word to him. He merely took the bochurs hands in his and started crying while saying to himself, shabos kodesh, shabos kodesh. He repeated this over and over. The tears of the chofets chaim fell on the bochurs hands. The bochur did not need to hear anything else.

The fire of the chofets chaims soul ignited this boys soul. The fire in our soul has it all. Its a chelek elokai. It trumps anything that seems to obstruct it.

Ein od milvado- he is good- all is good, Nothing else exists.

sonoftheking wrote:

Cordnoy is saying let sonoftheking read his own words.

Anyhow this thread started with a question from Bringmosioch and it looks that he is

not married . And the topic deviated to sonoftheking's lust vis love with wife .

i dont think Bringmoshioch got his answer . correct me if i am wrong.

BringMoshiach613 wrote:


New Action said that this hasn't been answered, although i did see some attempts in beginnin', but I will agree with him that there was some hijackin' goin' on here.

What is causin' you?
isn't that the $600,000.00 question?
People go to therapists for that.
Some go to SA.
some go to Rabbonim.
some make a cheshbon hanefesh.
There is a yetzer hara.
there is a general tayvah for these things.
Some have it more than others.
By me, it is/was/is a lifelong struggle.
What causes is?
Some say ego.
By some it's perfectionism.
Others are depressed.
many need an outlet.
Etc.

Find a tool of recovery and work it to the bone!

b'hatzlachah

I love this deep conversation. I just feel like I am rolling around in a muddy trench looking for some solid ground to climb out and all I can see are missiles flying back and forth overhead.
I feel like the civilians in Iraq that just want to be rescued but Obama is just sending missiles.
I don't worry too much about the deep thoughts and Olamos Elyonos, as Dov and Duvid Chaim taught me, I will never be able to debate or think my way out of the muddy pit. I will need action.

Hi 9494.
I totally agree with you.
I dont belive that one should be telling a family that has just suffered a loss, chas vsholom , that Ein Od Milvado. Of course thats the wrong time and place to say that.

Anything for that matter that causes even the slightest amount of pain to a yid is unacceptable. Hence the reason why The chasidic seforim disavow any sort of negative, harsh,critical,depressing,biting guidance.

If my quoting the seforims writings that we are to view everything as a facade etc, causes pain to any individual, of course he should not be reading this.
I only quoted what the seforim wrote themselves so as to strengthen a yid. To show him that the view of all this struggle should be restructured into its deeper truth. That is why the Baal shem tov and his talmidim themselves always touted all of the above.I know it strengthened me. I was a mess for decades until I merited to be taught the above. I cannot overemphasize how it changed my life.

So I felt its my duty to relay and to quote.

If it has the opposite effect on any yid, by all means, they should not read it.

btw, Thanks for reading and commenting.

Please note the bolded material below, and particularly the blue parts.

sonoftheking wrote:


Dear sonoftheking,

I am sorry, but improved kedusha in sex with the wife will not "make all well". And for this crowd, it will actually make nothing well.

The bolded parts above make it sound like you are saying that telling people exactly what they want to hear is the best path according to the Torah. Well, that sounds to me like what I wrote above about what 'sells', if you recall. I will quote Rav Tzvi Elimelech of Dinov zy"a in his sefer Agrah d'Pirka as well as the Ba'al haTanya zy"a, to explain exactly why being mekadesh sexual desires is often a poor eitza and does not work for sexaholics and many people here on GYE.

But first, let me explain where my perspective arises from, so that we might understand each other better.

About 4 years ago, GYE helped me start a twice-weekly group call and gave it the name, "Desperados". It was for those who thought they may be addicts. The call has gone through about 8 cycles so far, be"H. many families transformed out of hell to recovery as a result, and many other brochos have come from it, as well. The first crop of guys on that call were regular GYE posters, many of them on this forum for over a year. They had been posting what they used to call "challenges with P*** and M***", or talk of how terrible they felt about their 'terrible zera levatola problem'. Since they had been posting for a long time on GYE with mixed results, about ten guys decided to give the Desperados a try and try to actually break out from behind a fake name and a virtual identity, to open up and speak w real people. To work the 12 steps as frum Jews, etc, etc...they finally found a place where they could safely say the whole truth about themselves.

Hey, wait a minute! Wadayamean 'a place where they could finally be honest'?! Many of them had already been posting on GYE for a year! After all, GYE is the ultimate safe place, no? No real names, so hidden, safely hiding behind a computer identity and completely anonymous. So, naturally they will be 100% honest! Right?

Wrong.

See, I start the Desperados call by describing the 1st step and then sharing with everyone there exactly why I know I am an addict, and what I mean by that. That is not done by saying "I tell you, I really mean I am really powerless and an addict. Such rish'us! I was yearning for kedusha, but used to be so terrible and thinking about lust all the time, trust me...and it was all so horrible...until I found the emess and am b"H clean now, etc, etc..." No, in my experience that kind of stuff does nothing real, nothing transformative is being done with this admission. It's sterilized, almost respectable. A struggle for Tahara. But it's just the same-old, same-old...

Rather, I share all the facts about my actions with them. The facts I wrote down on paper 17 years before and shared with my SA sponsor and group directly and clearly: exactly what I do in my addiction in detail, both during the early years since I discovered just how much I like and need sex fantasy, porn, and masturbation; the pain I had with trying to do Teshuvah (ila'ah, mind you, and gemurah, too, of course!) and how trying to be holy only made things worse; the depressing feeling of knowing that I will need to masturbate in the shower again some time (if not every time) this week; the shame and utter shock of discovering through bitter experience that getting married and finally getting real sexual intercourse only made things worse!; the disappointment of Tanya not saving me, Tikun Klali and mikvah not saving me, seeing a shrink not saving me, how 'telling all' to Rabbi Twerski and later on an anonymous helpline didn't save me; taking medication not saving me, getting caught by my wife not saving me, and even acting out my best lust dreams not saving me. And that last discovery was the scariest shock of all, of course, for I was always sure that if only I could just get what I most desired I would finally be at peace and safe...just as I thought that marriage and sex with a real woman would help me. Hah, hah. That history is what I share with the guys on that call every cycle, and tell exactly how i got into recovery.

OK, so after I shared all the details about where I had been and how I got here, I invited them each to write down and then share their stories, without holding anything back...just as the Rebbe R' Meilech writes in #13 of his Tzet'l kotton, "not to hold anything back on account of shame", if they could. And most did exactly that.

Since then, each cycle, I do it all over again, and most of the guys write down and share their stories clearly and honestly and wholly with the group. (The call is safe, for the number is not available on line anywhere, so we know exactly who is on the call each time. Nobody's wife can get the number, no shrinks, no newspapers, no body but by inquiry and after interview.) And we continue with each of the steps this way, based on safety and complete honesty.

And a funny thing happened:

The truth about how twisted and in trouble these guys really were came out for the very first time. It never came out on the forum no matter how honest the guys thought they had been.

So I learned not to judge where guys really are, yet not to be suspicious. Just that true love meant keeping an open mind and not assuming we are really getting the whole truth out here on GYE's forum. Patience is needed. Patience bourn out of love, not suspicion. Posting is a tremendous first effort...but often just the tip of the iceberg.

And at the same time, I also learned another thing:

Since so many of us who were admitting "P*** and M***" and 'zera levatola problems' were actually doing some things that were much worse. And the ways we were pursuing our porn and doing our masturbation were more dangerous and ill than we usually let on. We were usually in denial about that. Details like 'occasional' phone sex, 'chatting with real women', following women around supermarkets (sometimes), started coming out, as well as occasional fetishes. The shame started to shrink and the truth started to grow.

The first feelings of liberation and freedom were felt by lots of guys...but that's not all.

During and after writing it all down on paper and then sharing it in a safe place, the truth becomes much clearer to us that, often, the things we post about here are actually the least of our problems! Rather, our obsession and preoccupation, our very ritualized and sometimes bizarre behaviors, and the lies we tell and live in order to keep our precious best friend protected - those are our great problems. Not the tayvos and aveiros were were always encouraged to fight, but the craziness we engage in, in order to support them. The general way we are living - our sicko double life - is the real trouble. And the yetzer hora is actually small fry! We saw our issue as one of 'yetzer hora' or 'sinning', in order to minimize it! Derech Eretz Kodma laTorah again...

"Sakanta chamira m'isura", Chaza"l tell us. Therefore, for the sexaholic (whether Jew or goy), the longer the issue with his addiction is seen as sin vs Kedusha, the longer it is being minimized! But at least it is more respectable that way!

So I strongly suggest that implying to the true addicts posting here that improving their sex with the wife in order to help them stay sober is misleading. Yes, it greaty appeals to their desire to be holy...and yes, it is exactly what they want to hear - so maybe it qualifies as "derocheha darchei noam", indeed. But it is just t'chiloso rach, v'sofo kosheh.

I and many others like me have found a solution that works for us, b"H. And it is not sex dressed up as kedusha.

Yes, kedusha in sexuality may come at times to some recovering people. But it cannot possibly start that way. When we blind ones try to start that way, we twist it as we twisted ourselves from the start.

Ein chavush matir atzmo m'beis ha'asurim. We need help of real people, connecting with real people, and openly admitting the truth about ourselves with real people as ourselves. If we could just be honest with Hashem about it, then we would not have gotten this screwed up in the first place. As RYB"Z told his talmidim: "[i]Sorry, but the fact is that you do not take Hashem nearly as seriously as you do a real person." Meaning that even for normal people (non-addicts), yir'as Shomayim will only be built by starting with connections with real people, like R' Meilech said. And addicts have found that we of all people, are as sick as our secrets and need to open up to other real live people to get sober - no matter how unpleasant it may be at first. Another thing people do not want to hear. Nu.




This post has gone on way too long as it is (and took three days between my wife needing the computer a few times) and I will post on how the posts about using the holiness of proper sexual outlets to deal with lust urges for addicts, based on the Agra d'Pirka.

THANK YOU, DOVALEH!

With reference to the uncomfortable truths and admitting things to safe people who understand, even though it's hard to do...all I got to say is that it's the sweetest thing there is. It brings on a mesikus and a shalvas nefesh greater than all the hisgabrus I have ever seem=n, in people and in myself.

Re the Agra d'pirka (written by the B'nei Yisoschor, AKA R Tzvi Elimelech of Dinov zt"l):

In os kuf"mem (#140) of the sefer, he has a piece abt machshovos zaros and what to do with them. In it, he alludes to what he wrote in Derech Pikudecha hakdoma 7, os 6. There he referenced the Tanya ch. 28, where R Shneur Zalman writes about the (Arizal's) concept of raising bad thoughts to kedusha and advises against it for those who are not ready. Why is this? Because the person will certainly fool himself that he is being ma'aleh them by using those thoughts for kedusha - but will end up fooling himself...plus the gayvoh of acting the tzaddik he isn't.

Now, if thoughts are not to be raised by trying to use them for Kedusha because people like us will fool ourselves and end up cultivating tayvoh and gayvoh, then what are we to say about a ba'al tayvoh pretending he can 'channel' maysim of tayvoh (lust actions like sex) into kedusha? Obviously, a situation that is ripe for self-deception! And of all things, self-deception has been our Achilles' heel, even more than 'desire'. In fact, I know of more than just a few cases of abuse of marital sex and other things (such as people), that began along these very lines. 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions', they say. Telling people sweet advice that they like to hear is that very road.

BTW, then the Dinover then writes a very sweet chidush that the posuk actually hints toward this! The Ba'al haTanya wrote that instead of one like us trying to raise the lusftul thoughts to kedusha, we must simply use them to perform the mitzvah of "lo sasuru acharei levavchem v'acharei eineichem". The reason we should not be ma'aleh them is because we still have a tayvoh for them. So, points out the Dinover, that is what the posuk is really saying: "[Use your lust thoughts to perform] lo sasuru [instead of being ma'aleh them as tzaddikim do - why? - [i]because they are thoughts that] asher atem zonim achareihem[/i]"!! Amazing and typical of his chidushim, zy"a. And he defines the people who do not suffer from that problem any more as "people whose yetzer hora in that is botul"...now I do not know anyone like that on this website. Do you? Surely, this website is the LAST place we will ever find such people. Humility is a good thing for us, especially. Baby steps.

Surely the person who is already doing these things or has been doing them for many years isn't one to channel things yet...and surely staying clean for '90 days' does not transform anyone into a different person in this regard. Though you may be shocked at how many guys stay clean for just a week or month or two and are then absolutely convinced that they are "finally free and healed!"

Let's not encourage that fantasizing.

Baby steps, baby steps...

Dov , your posts are like cool water to a thirsty soul . A real mechaye . THANKS !

Wow, it is nice getting feedback like that!. Thank you. But the thing matters the most to me is that whatever people can use from them, they use and live differently today be"H.

I edited my post above a lot, BTW.