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Bigmoish's path to tahara

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TOPIC: Bigmoish's path to tahara 80916 Views

Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 06 Jun 2023 20:38 #396975

shmuel
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true_self wrote on 06 Jun 2023 19:27:

Shmuel wrote on 06 Jun 2023 18:08:

true_self wrote on 05 Jun 2023 20:14:

I'll start with my apology, I did not read through the whole thread, (if I start reading through threads I'll never finnish:) )

Here are my thoughts (if you disagree, I'm happy to hear why)

"אלו ואלו דברי אלוקים חיים"
There are many approaches and ways to deal with this struggle, I personally do not have a lot of experience with both mehalchim, (of HHM & Cordnoy)
However here are the benefits I take out of both of them:
With HHM's approach, we can get rid of all that guilt we gathered over the years of being alone, and its definitely a must in order to start recovery.
With Cordnoy's approach, we can learn how special we are to have these challenges, Hashem doesn't give someone a challenge that he will not be able to withstand, That means that Hashem hand-picked us to be the soldiers to fight this awful battle, It also means that we have great potential hidden within us, that the YH is trying so hard to avoid of being discovered. We don't need to be ashamed that we are from the minority, rather we can be proud of being chosen to fight this battle, and ultimately bring moshiach.
Everyone should see what works best for him.

Thanks Bigmoish, HHM & cordnoy for all knowledge you share.
True self

Is this Cordnoy's approach?

This is what he wrote:
Now, Big Moish, why do you quote me on one half and not the other? Yes, we who can't keep our hands out of our pockets are in the minority (and by the way, I will concede to HHM that the number is increasin', but just because he talks to chashuvim who struggle with this doesn't mean that it's a majority at all), but that doesn't make us/you/I losers. It's a tough challenge, and some of us have it tougher for one reason or another.

I guess here lies the crux of our disagreement. I believe that the more 'normal' we make this struggle, and when we turn it into the 'battle' of the generation, the more we decrease the chances of 'long term' success for many. Yes, we can accomplish some short-term victories with that approach, but ultimately, there are those who we might be doin' a disservice to. And perhaps, the question may be: who is the target audience, and how are they determined?

He believes that its the minority of men who struggle, and if so... what I wrote...

@cordnoy, you never did get back to explaining your approach. I for one would love to hear it...

TIA

Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 13 Jun 2023 15:24 #397433

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cordnoy wrote on 05 Jun 2023 12:23:

Hashem Help Me wrote on 05 Jun 2023 10:56:

I don't see where i implied that the majority of chashuvim are nichshal. What i did say was that 1. there are chashuvim who are (or have been) nichshal, 2. one who is nichshal is definitely not an oddball, and 3. that the majority of chashuvim are well aware of what is going on.

I guess here lies the crux of our disagreement. I believe that the more 'normal' we make this struggle, and when we turn it into the 'battle' of the generation, the more we decrease the chances of 'long term' success for many. Yes, we can accomplish some short-term victories with that approach, but ultimately, there are those who we might be doin' a disservice to. And perhaps, the question may be: who is the target audience, and how are they determined?

Godspeed

I have been asked several times to explain this and perhaps elaborate (and this, by no means, means that my opinion is correct; it is nothin' more than my opinion): Let's take lashon hara for example. This is what almost everyone would agree as a "normal" struggle, universally shared. What is the approach? Learn Shmiras Halashon 5/10 minutes a day, dedicate one hour of extra-zehirus towards this, occasional soap-in-the-mouth and avoidin' large groups at a tavern. What happens for someone who joins this program? He does it for 2 weeks/5 weeks/ 3 months or more, but many, sadly, remain lashon hara talkers for the duration of their life - some more, some less. I am not sayin' not to follow that mehalech, for it is what we should be doin'; what I am sayin' is that it remains a 'battle of the generation.'

Now, let us take this parable a step further (again, for some): Let us say that this baal lashon hara is a tremendous ka'asan, and when he begins to talk about someone else in a derogatory manner, his voice rises, he swears, he degrades him and his family and his Rabbi, he cannot control his emotions - his wife slinks to the corner of the room, his kids don't stay near him durin' lainin' or the kiddush, he's not pleasant to be around. He is different than your normal shmoozer. What approach do we suggest for this fellow? Learn Shmiras Halashon 15 minutes a day? I don't think so. If he is treated as 'normal,' he will not get the help he so deserves.

So now, I ask you (fellow Rabbanim, Roshei Kollel, Menahalim, etc.): Are there many of your congregants with a porn addiction? In the world, yes. But of the 100 in the room, how many have issues with their zipper? 3, 5, 8? If you consider them/us 'normal,' I think there will be a disservice in the help we are providin'.

Godspeed

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Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 13 Jun 2023 15:47 #397434

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cordnoy wrote on 13 Jun 2023 15:24:

cordnoy wrote on 05 Jun 2023 12:23:

Hashem Help Me wrote on 05 Jun 2023 10:56:

And just for further clarity: This post is only referrin' to non-addicts (unlike myself, who is in the addicted category).

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Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 13 Jun 2023 19:32 #397442

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cordnoy wrote on 13 Jun 2023 15:24:

So now, I ask you (fellow Rabbanim, Roshei Kollel, Menahalim, etc.): Are there many of your congregants with a porn addiction? In the world, yes. But of the 100 in the room, how many have issues with their zipper? 3, 5, 8? If you consider them/us 'normal,' I think there will be a disservice in the help we are providin'.

Godspeed

Will we ever know exact statistics? dunno,
However I can say that I am certain that in my class in school at least 12+ boys out of 25 struggled with their zippers at the time.
Maybe my class was a rare exception? Maybe
Because they struggled at the age of 10-13 it does it necessarily tell that they still struggle? Maybe

Thanks cord

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Last Edit: 13 Jun 2023 20:43 by true_self.

Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 13 Jun 2023 19:49 #397443

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According to the Ohr Hachayim (Acharei Mos, 18:2) anyone who sees or thinks of these things, will struggle...
Unless if I don't understand it correctly:

"It is known that all the Mitzvos that Hashem commanded his holy nation are Mitzvos that a man can stand by and cause himself a desire to do, besides for the Mitzva of staying away from arayos (illicit sexual relations) which is something that a person craves and his desires forces him to act, unless one makes an effort to stay far away from two things: 1) Seeing with the eyes, 2) Thinking about it. However, if a person does not keep away from these two aspects (sight and thought), a man will not be able to control himself and rid himself of it."

guardyoureyes.com/articles/torah/item/the-ohr-hachayim-on-acharei-mos

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Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 13 Jun 2023 19:53 #397444

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Bigmoish wrote on 30 Jul 2014 17:48:

The reason I didn't mention that as part of the plan is because although I have watched p***, that is not really my major issue.
I am primarily focused on clearing my thoughts from fantasies about real people and putting an end to my m**** habit/addiction(jury's still out on which one it is).

Thank you for your post. I have zoomed in on a very important observation (quoted above) you have correctly made that I'm now going to paraphrase: Fantasy is the root cause of all masturbation. If you do not fantasize (and you carefully guard your eyes), you will not masturbate. Period.
You beautifully write that despite not looking at inappropriate online content, you still are are struggling with masturbation. This is an extremely common situation (one that I found myself in when I first got onto this site), and one that I attribute in large part to too little attention being given to the fact that fantasy is the central driving factor behind all sexual immorality, acting out, and intense battles with the yetzer hara. This website is called Guard Your Eyes, but really it should be called Guard Your Eyes and Your Mind, because many of us unfortunately have plenty we can think about without looking at anything at all. That's the problem. To continue distancing yourself from masturbation, it is critical that you remember that fantasy is the absolute root cause of all of your misery. Learn to gently allow yourself to move around thoughts of fantasy and on with your day (easier said than done, but is possible), and you will be a free man. Neurotic attempts to control every thought you have with an iron fist will almost certainly backfire. We need to be gentle with ourselves, understand how our minds work, and learn to sidestep unhealthy thought processes (i.e., fantasy) that consistently bring us to extreme frustration, nisyonos, and possibly much, much worse. May Hashem help us all.
Hatzlocha!

If you are wondering why you can't stop masturbating even though you're guarding your eyes, it's because you're fantasizing.

Last Edit: 13 Jun 2023 19:55 by 5Uu80*cdwB#^.

Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 14 Jun 2023 00:56 #397464

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5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 13 Jun 2023 19:53:

Bigmoish wrote on 30 Jul 2014 17:48:

If I may add, if we carefully think about our day, we may be fantasizing about so the women around us, even if we don't look at any porn. This too will do us in.

My Thread:The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:)

My other Thread: My Daily Inspiration

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Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 16 Aug 2023 04:51 #399906

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richtig wrote on 04 Jun 2023 18:48:

Bigmoish wrote on 04 Jun 2023 17:47:

Something I have been thinking about on and off for several years:
1. I am not sure what motivates me to proactively do things, but I do know that the main force that causes me not to do things is definitely honor/kavod/gaavah etc. (This may be the reason I have never acted out with another person.)
2. I have a close relationship with a Rebbe, who (I think) has a high impression of me. I am 99.99999% sure that were he to find out about my struggles, my status in his eyes would plummet. Therefore, although I see him every day, I can never tell him the truth about my biggest struggle, and continue to essentially live a double life. (I have another Rebbe I am close with who I have shared with, but it's not the same.)
3. (Here's where I start to go off the rails -) I have never gotten over the question of whether I (meaning "we") am the normal one, compulsively using porn and masturbation like "everyone else," or if I am the "odd" one, and this is, in fact not normal behavior by any stretch of the imagination. (Cordnoy has always voted the second option, so I usually go with that assumption.)
4. Catch-22: a) If I am the oddball, then I have every reason to have low self esteem, be ashamed from my Rebbe and everyone else, and attempt to hide and bury this behavior and any evidence it ever existed, for the sake of my pride.
b) If I am the "normal" one (even just nominally, say in the 20-25% realm), then surely there must be some very legitimately choshuv people out there who either have struggled or currently struggle with porn, masturbation, etc. If that were true, then we certainly should have heard about at least one big talmid chacham (I'll even settle for a massive gevir in honor of Adirei Hatorah), who admits to at least having had these issues in the past. Since none have yet come forward, I am forced to say that the stigma and shame is so great, it must be something that is so terrible and shameful, I have every reason to have low self esteem, be ashamed from my Rebbe and everyone else, and attempt to hide and bury this behavior and any evidence it ever existed, for the sake of my pride.

TL/DR: I watch/ed porn and masturbate, therefore I am a loser.

Welcome to hearing any thoughts.

Moish

I will leave for others to exclaim that you are wonderful, courageous, brave, and a tzaddik just for coming forward, and simply comment that let's say you are correct in your cool, elaborate philosophically laid-out structure (which I enjoyed reading), and that you are indeed a loser, why should you have to stay that way? Let's say that based on your history you have what to be ashamed about, can you see yourself changing and then allowing yourself to be okay with you? This is coming from someone who didn't allow himself to eat dinner in peace if second seder didn't go well; I didn't deserve it in my mind.

In terms of whether it is normal or not, I would say it is extremely common and typical, but that does not make it normal. But it does mean we are in decent company. In terms of why no famous rabbi came out, would you want to be the first? Maybe they are here in secrecy, on GYE. Chin up now

I did not realize that this was a thread that has been active for a long time- I thought it was new. I am sorry if my response was way off the mark. (I would delete it, since I missed the whole context and backstory, but am not able to. Thank you for the points you brought up

1. Thank you for your kind words. I cannot see myself changing.
2. If they are here in secrecy, I think that just proves my point...
3. Please don't apologize and definitely don't delete anything.

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Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 16 Aug 2023 04:52 #399907

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Foolie wrote on 04 Jun 2023 19:29:

Not to repeat what has already been said however I’m sort of going to. The first step you need to take is to embrace yourself warts and all once you do that you can begin to parse through the rest of your issues

What are the rest of my issues?

Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 16 Aug 2023 05:05 #399909

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Hashem Help Me wrote on 04 Jun 2023 20:32:

Dear Bigmoish - you write beautifully.

In response:

1. Fact - I have personally spoken to rabbonim, magidei shiur, roshei kollel, askanim, gevirim - loads of normal respected leaders in our communities who struggle(d) with this stuff. So, you are definitely not an oddball. You are a product of a generation that was unprepared for this nisayon and followed the same trajectory that loads of guys did. Why hasn't anyone come out publicly?! They want to be able to marry off their kids....

2. The majority of Rebbes, Roshei Yeshiva, Shul Rabbonim, and High School/Bais Medrash Rebbeim are well aware of the statistics, and are extremely sensitive and non-judgmental. Why are you so sure this Rebbe will look down at you?

Thank you for your kind words of flattery.
1. I think you are agreeing with me here, but I'm really not sure.
If admitted former porn users are not able to marry off their kids due to stigma, then where does that leave current porn users?
2. I can't be 100% sure, but I am sure. He is an excellent mechanech with hundreds of talmidim across a wide spectrum of religious levels, but I know the way he is machshiv the ones who "made it" in chinuch, klei kodesh, etc, more than others. He loves all of his talmidim, but he would not look at me the same if he knew, I just know.

Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 16 Aug 2023 05:08 #399911

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iwillmanage wrote on 04 Jun 2023 20:59:

Bigmoish wrote on 04 Jun 2023 17:47:

TL/DR: I watch/ed porn and masturbate, therefore I am a loser.

Sorry, what's a loser?

Sounds like some fictitious concept thought up by a guy with lots of imagination..

loser
noun
los·er ˈlü-zər
Synonyms of loser
1
: a person or thing that loses especially consistently
The team had a reputation for being a loser year after year.
2
: a person who is incompetent or unable to succeed
Don't waste your time on that loser.
also : something doomed to fail or disappoint
his position is a loser politically

Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 16 Aug 2023 05:10 #399912

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Sapy wrote on 04 Jun 2023 21:01:

Moish, I'm trying to understand, is 3 and 4 explaining why you shouldn't talk to your Rebbe? Or just if you have permission to be ashamed?

Both, I guess

Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 16 Aug 2023 05:23 #399913

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chaimoigen wrote on 05 Jun 2023 00:58:

Hashem Help Me wrote on 04 Jun 2023 20:32:

BigMoish, If you hunt around in the forums and you read between the lines I think you will find that there are many Talmidei Chachomim here, your brothers, who are struggling along with you in the Nisayon of our generation.
Read the enthusiastic Haskamos from all sorts of leaders - do they sound like they know what we are going through?
There is a Halacha that a person is not supposed to announce his Aveiros publicly, except in certain circumstances. That doesn't mean that sensitive people who pour their Neshomos into Ruchniyos don't have excruciating struggles. Often these struggles may be how they achieved certain levels.
Youre not a loser for having a challenge. And neither is your Rebbe, if he can relate to your challenge more personally than you think. And even if he BH did not struggle personally, he knows so many Tayereh Yiddin who do, if he knows anything.
Speak to your Rebbe, please. I suspect you will be glad you did.
But first - I beg you - Look at the Yid in the mirror with Rachmanus and tell him - "You are not a loser. You are a Tayehreh Neshoma !"

P.S. I edited this post after writing it . not that anything in it is wrong. But because I went back to the beginning of this thread and read a few pages. And I realize I have a lot to learn from you. So please forgive the tone , I admire you a lot.

1. I have a hard time accepting the haskamos, as I read them all as being from "normal" rabbanim, gedolim, etc, saying, "It's a really good thing we have this invaluable tool called GYE to help all the nebach sickos who got sucked in to this impossible yetzer hara. Not that it's their fault per se, and they shouldn't chas veshalom be judged, because the nisyonos in this generation are so tremendous!"
2. My Rebbe is not a loser, please see my other recent response explaining that I will not open up to him. He probably does know many tayereh yidden that struggle, but if he does not suspect me as being one of them, he will definitely view me differently. He's not my wife, that I feel he needs to know this dark secret about me. I'd rather he think of me as a tzaddik than know I am a porn user.
3. Please don't apologize, I prefer the sharp dialogue to excessive and unwarranted praise. It just inflates my ego, which never ends well.

Re: Bigmoish's path to tahara 16 Aug 2023 05:27 #399914

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cordnoy wrote on 05 Jun 2023 03:00:

Late to the party; crazy day, crazy week, crazy month and year....

I like what Chaim wrote at the end; yes, tis a good idea to read the beginnin' of the thread; don't start with mine, however, for several reasons.

Now, Big Moish, why do you quote me on one half and not the other? Yes, we who can't keep our hands out of our pockets are in the minority (and by the way, I will concede to HHM that the number is increasin', but just because he talks to chashuvim who struggle with this doesn't mean that it's a majority at all), but that doesn't make us/you/I losers. It's a tough challenge, and some of us have it tougher for one reason or another.

To be cont....

Godspeed

1. I took long enough time to respond that we are no longer on the same crazy day, week or month. Still a crazy year?
2. Semantics, I think. Fine, so I'm not a loser. Call it want you want, but I feel inferior for not being able to beat this.