Zvi. First of all I don't think I welcomed you yet, so hi.
Regarding what you wrote about the kid in your class saying "Zvi" OUCH. But you're not alone in that respect, see here.
Now as for your conversation with Dov, let me explain something to you.
You and Dov are having two different conversations.
If you meet Dov in Beis Medrash [or even in the Dentist's office, where I met him], he'll be happy to discuss Avoidas Hashem with you. Dov is a holy yid and very spiritual.
However, if you introduce yourself as a lust addict Dov will not speak with you until you understand that you're killing yourself as long as you keep "trying to fight the Yetzer Hara" using regular measures.
I hope you understand.

I am saying it does not really matter what it is all 'really' about. If you keep needing to do it and masturbating yourself compulsively then you need help and you being a goy farm-boy is not a drop of a disadvantage over being a Rov. Knowing that it is a failed effort to try to get close to Hashem does nothing for you, really, to stop.

Yes, if it makes you feel good and respectable then fine. That's nice. But what does that really matter? Yes, we love being respectable...even in our porn and masturbation. But where does it really get us? Nowhere. (is nowhere one word?)

In the end, we all end up needing to be the poor man (or woman), humbly walk to the people who are clean that come before us, hold our our hand humbly, and ask for help becase we cannot help ourselves.

The half-shekel is to remind us that we are halves alone. We need our fellow Jew in order for us to be 'whole shekels'. In the same way, for recovery from this mess, we need each other and we need G-d. Not information (Torah) - but G-d! As Chaza"l say, zman Torah l'chud, uz'man t'filloh l'chud. There is a time for information-seeking and there is a time for attachment to G-d in our humble, lowly and simple neediness.

Does that address it better?

Ok, let's try this again: Is what you're saying that feeling close to Hashem is, as far as this struggle is concerned, wholly irrelevant?

BINGO! Inspiration feels good, but does not go very far.

Humbly admitting our mistakes is much harder, much more real, and much more powerful!

We need to humbly accept that we are utterly powerless without Hashem.

gibbor120 wrote:


Like really man, how hard is it to feel inspired when you experience something inspiring (huh? say what bro?). Not very hard, that's right! In yiddishkeit we say that spiritual heights that are achieved with out earning them through working are very dangerous place to be.

but (with the niggun used to say a yotze min haklal. Bu-ut)

gibbor120 wrote:


That requires work and ultimately will help us,

Eli

reallygettingthere wrote:

And why?
Because you become filled with teshuka without a kli to put them in, like what you were trying to say.
Bu-ut
Who cares why?
What are you doing today differently than yesterday.

Gotcha. Thanks!

gibbor120 wrote:


But how do you do that?

Sharing with a real person.

Dear Zvi,

Here is the confusion as I see it, be"H:

You are asking, "So then you are saying that feeling close to Hashem is not the answer?!"

And of course, being with Hashem is the answer. Not feeling close to Him, but being close to Him. And his main requirement seems to be self-honesty. Chasamo shel Hakodosh boruch Hu is Emess, Chaza"l tell us. It is His calling card.

Many are close to Him but feel practically nothing! Many feel it all...but are not really with Him, at all. In fact, if doing xyz made you always feel soooo close to Him before - and you were soon masturbating yourself again anyhow, then I'd suggest that your deveikus indicators are broken. Practically all ours are, too. You are in good company.

Do you know how often Christians say "So I gave it some thought, prayed on it a while, and I finally heard (or felt) G-d tell me this is the the right choice"? Very often...whether they are raging addicts or not. Well, I ask you, Zvi - did He? They are neviim, now? Hmmm..

In "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" (a fantastic read) Bill W. wrote about this and commented that many of us drunks are experts in religious sentiment, deep feelings and such, but "wallowed in emotionalism, mistaking it for true religious feeling." He wrote that "the quality of our faith was more important than the quantity." Interesting words. Few of us have a quiet faith that works. He did not mean that we were insincere. He meant that we were just sick.

The only way we really know we are 'off' is by whether we can thereafter live our lives well without having to resort to our drug or any other compulsive behavior that substitutes for it. It's no use trying to 'line up' what we think we believe with what Torah says we should believe to compare it and judge...for we have no clue what we really believe yet!

Sure we are all kedoshim and possess infinite being that our neshoma is a chelek Eloka mima'al! But here we are in Olam ha'asiyah. And in the end, the way we actually behave shows what we really believe on a functional level. And it is not pretty. We have work to do. Slow, patient work. We all want to be tzaddikim by plugging into our potential and letting all the distractions fall away. And that is so very important for general growth and stuff like that. But I have come to believe that for addicts that is just plain irrelevant (to starting and maintaining recovery). If we really take the actions we need to in order to stay clean at all costs, then we can be certain that our hearts are in the right place. But if we need to paint our problem in pretty spiritual terms in order to make it more respectable...well, then I fear we have chosen respectability (comfort) over truth. And the Truth about how we work right here and now is unbeatable.

And like I posted a few weeks ago, we have all had the experience of absolute religious clarity and alignment with Torah - right after we masturbated again. It all becomes so clear then...for a little while.

So for the true addict (maybe not you at all, Zvi) the way I see it there are two options for attaining and maintaining religious clarity:

recover

or

masturbate a whole heck of a lot, so that you will spend a lot of time in that blissful/excruciating state where "it's all so clear to me!"

Life is really not that bad.

OMG, I gotta stop these megillah...someone's gonna throw up soon.

Dov wrote:


That is big-time mucho, mondo, grande true

How do you write short posts like that?!! AHHHH!!!
Teach me, sensei!

So are any feelings of connection that I have to Hashem at the moment genuine? Or is it all empty, meaningless spirituality?
And also, how do you define an addict? At what stage does this move from being a problem to an actual addicition?

I posted something in your honor on my thread right here.

On another note entirely, I'm still clean B'H, nearing the end of day 6. Today wasn't easy- I was very tired, and as I'm sure everyone here knows, it's when you're tired that the satan closes in... however, I'm clean- long may it continue (one day at a time, of course )