i'm not going to say you guys are wrong - i'm just saying that I am not up to that level of feeling it myself YET.I was rolling in mud for nearly 40 years before i even STARTED recovery, or before i even knew there COULD be such a thing as recovery.so, although I'd love to do what you guys say I should do, namely feel it myself, I just don't.

also, if Dov hasn't thrown me to the dogs yet, he will now.in my view, there are other things to do besides the 12 steps.and if i find something else that works for me better, then I will do that.I'm sorry I blasphemed.they will now throw me off this site.the only thing that's absolute, always & forever, is the Torah.not the 12 steps, or anything else.and the big book even says so - 'these are just guidelines'.now i admit, they are very good guidelines, but they are just guidelines.
and as far as what i'm referring to when I speak of our leader, i mean the fact that he wants us all to be clean and he works VERY hard to that end.and he's not doing it for himself.
jack

anyone ever see pictures of the woodstock rock & roll concert that took place in 1969? did u ever see people rolling in REAL mud? while it was raining! go tell them that what they were doing was disgusting. you think they'll listen to you? they LIKED rolling in the mud.it was fun.not to me.but i have my own mud.and i need someone to tell me 'jack, get out of there!'.sorry to disappoint all of you who are telling me i should know on my own.and I have now reached the point in my recovery where I am able to listen to people telling me to get out of the mud.it takes the ability to get out of ourselves, an idea that it DOES say in the 12 steps, as told to us by dov.
jack

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


Perhaps...perhaps not

But don't we all?

jack wrote:


nobody's throwin you off the site.
If you find other means of recovery, go for it! by all means.
I too have spent decades in this before beginnin' recovery on any serious level.
Regarding the torah, if you are willin' to recover cuz Guard or dov tells you to, why don't you do it for God? He also says to.

Perhaps you are.
Whatever, keep on the recovery truck, and when you pass by my neck of the woods, kindly tie me up, pick me up, dump me in the back of the truck, and say, "Cords, you're comin' with me!"

thanks bro!

jack wrote:


B"H!

hatzlachah veiter!

I was on Dov's call this Sunday and he was emphatic that the 12-steps or SA are not the only way to recovery and that they may not be the way for everybody. He said that he firmly believes that if he believed otherwise, he would jeopardize his sobriety. He also mentioned, as you have, that the White Book itself does not maintain it is the only path or the path for everyone. It's the way that has worked for us. So if you think Dov said anything else, you misunderstood him. I haven't read all the comments yet, which may be a mistake . But, I'm going to read them now.

i was in a EDA (eating disorders anonymous) meeting and one person there said to me: 'if you dont do the 12 steps you just wont recover'.by the way, that meeting wasn't for me - it was for anorexics - i dont have that problem.my problem with eating is the opposite - anxiety if I have no food for 3 minutes straight.of course, yom kippur is a BIG incentive not to eat - karays you know-
true anorexics really have a lot of challenges in life - they are terrified of gaining an ounce.during recovery we have to be careful not to become sexual anorexics - see the book by patrick carnes, recommended to me by elya k. called 'sexual anorexia'

while i'm here, it says in behaloscha (i think - i didnt look) that the people were crying over their families - they had to divorce their wives.well, we also have to get a divorce - from porn.it has been our family, our 'loved one'.and getting a divorce will be painful - and it will involve crying.i wonder - maybe they had meetings in the midbar to discuss the withdrawal symptoms - after all, they were all in the same boat (i'm really being serious)

I have zero problem with sexual anorexia. Anyone here have that problem? Sounds like a sex dream, someone telling them to make sure to have enough sex.

i'm not an expert, but all he says is that SOMETIMES, when people try to overcome their addictions, they go to the other extreme and become anorexic.he doesn't say it happens in ALL cases.but, he is the acknowledged expert on sexual addictions, by professional sex addiction therapists.i'm sure there are people who disagree with him, too.

I would imagine that he is talking about compulsively abstaining from sex, love and intimacy. Compulsive behaviors in general are not healthy. That is not the same as abstaining from sex for 6 months or a year in order the break sexual addiction and learn how to have a meaningful relationship with a spouse. Sexual anorexia is not merely abstaining from sex.

Hatzlacha!

AGREED!

what works? one can never know.here's a little itty bitty tidbit from rabbi twersky (who is the spiritual source behind this web-site): he had a back-ache.but he didn't want to take pain-killers for fear that he would become addicted to them! can you imagine that? he'd rather live with pain than become addicted! this is a model for us on how bad addiction is.how REALLY bad addiction is.
jack

I PM'd you, chaver

Hazlocha