Lately as I’ve been reading through the forums I realized that many people identify themselves as “not normal”, well I don’t know ‘bout you guys but I feel COMPLETELY normal. So I made some mistakes, that doesn’t define who I am. Now you could argue that I’m not equipped to understand the turmoil that people feel. Well, maybe, but this is my theory: if I can’t feel normal, how can I act normal?
would love to hear your thoughts.

Gotta think about it. But one quick question . It seems like you're name should be kill depression not killjoy!

Killjoy wrote on 12 Nov 2018 03:31:

I might get shot down for this, but I think we are not normal because we stand out as people who stop to work on themselves!... I look around and realise that you are right, everyone has their issues and this is mine (normal so far) but I don't know of any websites dedicated to frum jews not driving the excess Gashmius of our kehillos. I don't see people bemoaning their lapses in Loshon Hora or Choshen Mishpot or many other areas. So, if we, as a group, are making an effort, then no, we are not normal.
(I realise that I might well get shot down by people who will argue that everyone is working on themselves and I shouldn't judge others, but I was careful in what I said - I am referring to websites and large groups dedicated to improving. Ironically, the one we do have in common that springs to mind are groups of women dedicated to Tznius. Something rather deep about that I would suggest).    

Killjoy wrote on 12 Nov 2018 03:31:

Finally somebody wondering out loud about something on this forum. So refreshing.

I think you said that you feel normal. That's a fact. You have a right to your feelings. As for me, I feel
abnormal in some areas.

With regard to the question you wrote, I would answer that if one has a disease one can counteract that disease with medicines, activities, thoughts and behaviors etc. Those are all abnormal actions, and the goal is to be more normal (counteract the disease.)

With regard to mistakes not defining who I am, I would agree in most cases but again I would say that people who think they have a disease may choose to define themselves by the disease (and the healing) because the disease is constant and relentless and only ego can generate enough motivation to take the medicine all day long.

Killjoy wrote on 12 Nov 2018 03:31:

Basically agree.

Your point is very well taken. I think there is a deeper point as well. When one views himself as normal, just with an issue that needs to be rectified, one has a greater chance of getting better. However, when one views themselves as abnormal, they feel a deep sense of yi'ush, they "can't get better" because they are defined by their "problem". I would venture to say that many many people who are just starting out feel abnormal (I definitely viewed myself as a rasha/loser). However those who join GYE and hang around for a while, definitely start feeling "normal". They realize that many good fine frum people struggle with the same thing. Secondly, they meet real live people who were "there" and got out, and start believing and hoping that they can too.

I hear your opinion and totally respect it. But I just feel that some people give too much credit to there desires. Nowadays it always seems that we label people: he’s an addict he’s depressed etc. In my humble opinion if we were to stop labeling ourselves we could realize that we are people who deserve happiness just like everyone else. By labeling I feel we’re giving more power to our desires. Again that’s just my feelings.
would love to hear back. Thank you!

Killjoy wrote on 15 Nov 2018 01:40:

Some labels are dead on though. What really matters is being objective. That will give the best results at the end of the day.

Kay guys, really appreciated your insight! I just wanted to expound on my view. When a person feels he is “not normal” the effects can be devastating. Think of it this way, if you magnify a problem it becomes a bigger problem, which in turn leads to despair, which leads to a bigger problem etc. The chasidim are big on “yiush” stressing that it is worse than the actual sin, and you gotta admit, their onto something.
There is another point in all this as well. When a person views himself or his urges abnormal, he is waging war, so to speak, on his desires. Now I’ll admit I haven’t been clean very long, but I can tell you that from my personal experience this just doesn’t work. Now I’m not saying that you should live in denial. If you have a problem admit it, but also accept the fact that you’re a normal person with desires and demons like many others. Many might call this “acceptance” or “forgiving oneself” , either way it’s a good first step. After realizing that this “addiction” or “habit”- depending on what you believe or who you are- is not you, and it’s just one of your many manly (or womanly) urges you can try to substitute other pursuits. Music works for me. More on that a different time as that’s a topic onto itself.
anyways you know the drill.
cheers!!

I kind of agree, because it is natural to want to see beautiful naked women, it is easy to access, and many people are exposed to porn before they have an appropriate sexual outlet. I think a positive approach is better- yes it's normal, but it's not what we want.

A bocher was crying to his menahel about masturbation- its so hard not to, and he feels so guilty etc., and the menahel pointed to the gedolim pictures on the walls, and said you see rebbe ploni? He also masterbated! And you see rebbe ploni? So did he!
It doesn't make it ok, but it puts you in good company and gives hope that we are not limited by it forever.

יהוסף הצדיק wrote on 24 Feb 2023 15:50:

Ummm….
not so maskim that the manahel did the right thing. Whatever ( this is not a chenuch forum) but I do think every yeshivah should have a person that buchrem ( and high school girls, in school) can feel really comfortable and have healthy talks with. And they should be given class from experience people in this area had to deal with theses issues.
Now back to the topic of the thread… I’m maskim that it’s not healthy going around thinking that your not normal but I’m not sure normal ( I don’t mean people not mentally disabled) have issues watching porn. They would look away if they were exposed. My humble opinion. But how would I know? I would look so I don’t know what normal people do…

I think you may be right. As I was writing I thought, maybe I think it's normal because I've been doing it for so long. But whether it is normal to actually look away or not, I think it is natural to want to look. And if not, goes to show how warped my brain is.I would add, as aside, that since I last watched porn and scantily clad women a cpuple of weeks ago, I have been so much more into my wife and her into me, and I haven't told her anything about sstopping. And after several years of marriage we found out she enjoys different things, which before she always was physically uncomfortable with.

Geshmak! wrote on 24 Feb 2023 16:02:

Of course normal people have issues watching porn! First of all, I have this issue:) But seriously, if you talk to some people here, both those still struggling and the ones who have graduated, you will see that they are fine, normal people who have/had a nisayoin. That's all. I feel very strongly that realizing this has been a huge part of my progress, because when we recognize that we are normal people with an issue, we have much greater hope to get out than when we think we are nisht ingatzen