Blind Beggar wrote on 24 Nov 2011 10:16:


Not to be the supreme pain in the butt, but now that you are able to quote all this, and now that you discovered that 'w/o GYE you'd be toast' - in other words, if not for the help of others and having done some opening up to others in action and not just in wish - where do you get the idea that you can possibly succeed to do what is easier said than done as you put it, by yourself?

I just want you to succeed.

A fellow powerless man who is an addict,

Dov

hey Blind beggar,

with all respect your name is a lie. if you really were blind you would not notice anyones legs. Im no angel but I can tell you that if i feel uncomfortable with a woman i move to the other direction. so you have to work with them, but you can still avert your eyes.

I have found very helpful with my gedarim to listen to Reb Dovy's 4.45 shmiras ainayim group and i listen to it when i take the bus etc. keeps me focused.  You can find the mp3 downloads of past clips if you search 'shmiras_ainayim'

but only you can make that decision to put up boundries. If you dont, then you have lost your bechira. Do it for your wife who is better looking, loves you, and all you need to do is focus your attention on the only woman who counts in the world.... your partner in life

with love and friendship,

HY

If you want to understand my name, follow this link.
It is a wish rather than an accomplishment. I do try to avert my eyes as much as possible.

my impression from private chats was that he has been speaking to people live allready.

What a day! Hardly anyone works on Sunday, so no triggers. The computers also didn't work much today, so plenty of frustration. Then I realized that my TaPhSiC shevuah had expired so I allowed myself a filthy, pornographic, lust fantasy about a tznua, chareidi co-worker. Still sober and 130 days on the Chart, but I need that shevuah.


Tomorrow, I am going meet a new woman, a shiksa from America who is visiting for a week. She may be be ugly and fat but I bet she isn't. I am going to try to avoid the triggers at work and concentrate on work. You'll read all about it only on this thread (unless I do something which makes it to the news).

Blind Beggar wrote on 27 Nov 2011 18:31:


This is a rant, I really love you, though you may not see it. But this needs to come out of me for I could not live without the ideas I express here. May Hashem help you take it in the way it was written:

I love you but what I quoted above is plainly disgusting. I am sorry to put it that way, but I could not stay sober while retaining a disgust and demeaning attitude toward goyishe women. Maybe in frum circles in Israel where the chiloni and frum hate eachother so much this is encouraged, but that is still disgusting. Calling them prejoratives like "shiksah" right at the outset, belies your attitude to them as being subhuman, or at least, sub-you. And that is a lie and Hashem has no part in lies - especially the comfortable ones. She may be a goyah, but I (and Rav Akivah Tatz and others) would bet that she is doing a better job of doing her tafkid in life than you and I are. I'd also wager that she has not and does not do the lusting/acting out thing as you and I tend to, and it is highly unlikely that she has done anything even close to the damage that we two have done to ourselves and others through our years of compulsive, selfish, and immature sexual acting out.

It's so easy for a frummy to throw around prejoratives like "shiksah", and thereby turn a person they are afraid of into a 'monster', or at least into an object. From there, it is a very short throw to lusting over her - "heck, she probably nails everything that moves, she is a shiksah, after all...and would probably be all over me if I let my guard down, dirty thing as she is..." Sound nutty? I think not. That is what we open ourselves to fantasize about when we treat these people like dogs in our minds. It is not the derech Hashem. Chaviv odom shenivroh betzelem is for a goy, too. The "odom and not ho'odom thing is talking about the segulah to fulfill the tachlis of the b'riyah, not being subhuman or not choviv.

As the Ba'al Shem Tov (the rabbit so many chassidim have forgotten about) would say, every person put into our life is a reflection of hashem's Will for us, an opportunity to love Hashem by loving his briyos- and briyos includes goyim, male or female.

You have an opportunity to lovbe her appropriately. Loving a squirrel by looking at it and enjoying it and wishing it well (as all the real tzaddikim do!) is not sexual love - and neither is the way I love a goyishe woman (and neither is the way I love you, for that matter!). Loving the people at your work is done by having and cultivating the proper relationship with them. Something you are still resistant to, it seems.

Thank you Dov.
I do not hate goyim or, lehavdil, chilonim. Most chareidim and chilonim do not hate each other, only a small minority such as judges and journalists.
Mrs W. is very pleasant to deal with and seems to do her job very well. Thankfully, her lack of tznius is not triggering. It is sobering to think of the tremendous amount of damage that I have done in my life.
BTW, most frum women have a revulsion to Arab women in the maternity ward but the truth is that these women and their babies probably never have and never will kill a Jew. The only Jew killers in hospitals are the (very misguided) doctors and maybe some of the nurses.

Blind Beggar wrote on 26 Nov 2011 16:57:
Ok Blind beggar, Thanks for the explanation. Rebbe Nachman would want you to make him proud, as my Rebbe would too for myself.

best of luck in your struggle...

dov wrote on 27 Nov 2011 22:21:

dov, I have a kashe.  You frequently refer to looking at porn as looking at "naked shiksas".  Is that not pejoritave?  Am I missing something?  I'm not attacking, just wondering what's the diff?

I agree with Dov that shiksa is not a nice term and that the pious among us should avoid using it.  That being said, it doesn't sound like Blink Beggar is pious nor at a level where any chastisement would work.  If a person is calling women Shikses they've got other problems that need addressing... crass language is the tip of the iceberg.

That being said, Dov I think your reaction was disproportionate and I have to ask if you are working the programme.  Just because you have 14 more years of sobriety than I do (;-) doesn't mean I can't ask, b'kavod.

We should all merit only holy speech befitting of Klal Isroel and that would give nachos to our holy patriarchs. 

gibbor120 wrote on 28 Nov 2011 15:17:

I write that in order to point out that a frum guy who considers himself normally a rather holy person - but with a porn problem, is actually playing a little game. He is looking up to and even worshipping people that he'd probably never even want to talk to, feeling they are the lowest of the low. Now, I do not consider them low personally. They are trying to make a living and misguided, I believe. But that's not the point here.

How many guys have I met who want to play the game of looking down on these nudes or badly dressed women - and yet put them on a high pedestal, valuing them enough to be l'hutim achareihem? Many. I played that game for years. It is a game that perpetuates the addiction. It is one example of kol haposeil bemumo poseil, looking at the nudes as low and disgusting people - while still using them with such temidus and mesiras nefesh. Their images are precious to us! That's why we want them so much! So, struggling not to stare at them in the street, while saying they are 'disgusting' to me is a lie and a silly game. And ultimately, it allows people to keep staring at them and using them. It's very sad. I want people to be sopber, and that is the only reason I am pointing this out. 

I am not judging - hey, I know and tell anyone in recovery that I am a recovering pervert. That I cannot do it without a daily reprieve from none other than G-d Himself - cuz I do not have the madreigo/moral fortitude/yir'as Shomayim to resist temptations, and particularly for sex. I have no superiority at all over you or anyone here, even over a guy who is still masturabting daily. That could be me - and should be, by all rights, as far as I can tell.

Here, I am only hoping to rip the hypocritical cover off the game some good guys are playing. My cover is already ripped off today, I hope.

Today is 250 days which are 35 weeks and 5 days of being sober.


I couldn't wait until Pesach.

Wow thats incredible...Good for you... keep it up....all the way to 365 and beyond...

Behatzlacha

Dov,

I am very glad I took the time to read your post on the "shiksah" quote. It is incredible how accurately you depicted my attitude towards these women. I put them down, and treat them in my mind like animals thereby making it easier for me to lust. Thank you for bringing that point out. I am 1 insight stronger then yesterday.

Yossi

How's things, BB? However they are, you are a geshmakeh yid, indeed!!

Yossi L. (is the "L" for Lorgibadinsky, by any chance? I know a guy by that name who has a brother named Yossi....), thanks for sharing the chizzuk. Continued hatzlocha!