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Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 15:14 #405882

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Rav Shlomo Wolbe zt”l writes:  "The great Jewish philosophers established bechira as the cornerstone for the whole Torah.... But from this resulted a common misperception among the masses; that all people actively choose their every act and every decision. This is a grievous error."

At times a person is faced with such a difficult nisayon (test) that it is indeed impossible for him to overcome and he won't be held responsible for this because he was an anus.
 צדקת הצדיק · מג 
פעמים יש אדם עומד בניסיון גדול כל כך עד שאי אפשר לו שלא יחטא כד"ש (ברכות לב, א): מה יעשה הבן כו', ובזה הוא נחשב אונס גמור דרחמנא פטריה. וגם בהסתת היצר בתוקף עצום שאי אפשר לנצחו שייך אונס [ואם הש"י הסיב את לבו הרי אין חטא זה חטא כלל, רק שרצון הש"י היה כך] ועמ"ש בכתובות (דף נא:) גבי תחלתו באונס אפי' צוחת לבסוף שאלמלא מניחה היא שוכרתו מותרת לבעלה מ"ט יצר אלבשה הרי דזה מחשב אונס גמור אעפ"י שהוא מרצונה מ"מ יצר גדול כזה א"א באדם לכופו והוא אונס גמור ואין בזה עונש אף דעשה איסור כיון שהי' אנוס.
אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?"
feel free to reach out @  ahavayirah@gmail.com
Last Edit: 28 Dec 2023 21:01 by davidt.

Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 16:20 #405885

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Wow! Thank you for sharing. I would love to see that inside. Do you happen to have the mareh makom for R' Wolbe?

Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 17:04 #405887

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siyatta wrote on 28 Dec 2023 16:20:
Wow! Thank you for sharing. I would love to see that inside. Do you happen to have the mareh makom for R' Wolbe?

(Alei Schur, Vol. 1, p. 155)
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?"
feel free to reach out @  ahavayirah@gmail.com

Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 17:49 #405891

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davidt wrote on 28 Dec 2023 15:14:

 צדקת הצדיק · מג 
פעמים יש אדם עומד בניסיון גדול כל כך עד שאי אפשר לו שלא יחטא כד"ש (ברכות לב, א): מה יעשה הבן כו', ובזה הוא נחשב אונס גמור דרחמנא פטריה. וגם בהסתת היצר בתוקף עצום שאי אפשר לנצחו שייך אונס [ואם הש"י הסיב את לבו הרי אין חטא זה חטא כלל, רק שרצון הש"י היה כך] ועמ"ש בכתובות (דף נא:) גבי תחלתו באונס אפי' צוחת לבסוף שאלמלא מניחה היא שוכרתו מותרת לבעלה מ"ט יצר אלבשה הרי דזה מחשב אונס גמור אעפ"י שהוא מרצונה מ"מ יצר גדול כזה א"א באדם לכופו והוא אונס גמור ואין בזה עונש אף דעשה איסור כיון שהי' אנוס.
אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]

I also quoted this recently. It is important to note his last words אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]. In other words, a person has to always combat the Y"H and always do teshuva for the past and he can't use this argument of onas as a way of rationalizing his behavior. I pointed out an exception where someone was abused as a child and did things that were improper as a child and davidt also pointed out children who were exposed as a child that they are considered an onas. The actions of a child aren't considered deliberate.

Very often when people join GYE they feel that they are an onas. It is very normal for someone to feel that way when he sincerely tried everything and he really doesn't want to do it and yet he can't succeed. After being on GYE for a while, using all the tools on GYE and investing in this fight many such people have broken free.

For addicts it might be true that at some point they had no bechira but it would often be because of previous behavior where they did have bechira. I was never an addict but there are many slogans in AA that help in overcoming addiction, even after a person has reached a level where he has no bechira. The same is true for many people who already fell many times who aren't addicted.

As bright wrote, once a person starts fighting the Y"H, the question of whether he has bechira over his falls while he is fighting is irrelevant. I am adding that a person fighting is supposed to use the guilt and shame from his falls as a catalyst for growth and not as a means to beat himself up and give up. Saying that he has no bechira will impede growth. I myself used to think that I was forced to sin and GYE proved me wrong. Today I am a free man. The day will come when you will have succeeded in overcoming your struggles and the argument of not having bechira will be proven wrong.

The Battle of the Generation has a lot to say about bechira. I suggest that you read it regularly.
Last Edit: 28 Dec 2023 18:16 by yitzchokm.

Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 18:41 #405894

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yitzchokm wrote on 28 Dec 2023 17:49:

davidt wrote on 28 Dec 2023 15:14:

 צדקת הצדיק · מג 
פעמים יש אדם עומד בניסיון גדול כל כך עד שאי אפשר לו שלא יחטא כד"ש (ברכות לב, א): מה יעשה הבן כו', ובזה הוא נחשב אונס גמור דרחמנא פטריה. וגם בהסתת היצר בתוקף עצום שאי אפשר לנצחו שייך אונס [ואם הש"י הסיב את לבו הרי אין חטא זה חטא כלל, רק שרצון הש"י היה כך] ועמ"ש בכתובות (דף נא:) גבי תחלתו באונס אפי' צוחת לבסוף שאלמלא מניחה היא שוכרתו מותרת לבעלה מ"ט יצר אלבשה הרי דזה מחשב אונס גמור אעפ"י שהוא מרצונה מ"מ יצר גדול כזה א"א באדם לכופו והוא אונס גמור ואין בזה עונש אף דעשה איסור כיון שהי' אנוס.
אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]

I also quoted this recently. It is important to note his last words אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]. In other words, a person has to always combat the Y"H and always do teshuva for the past and he can't use this argument of onas as a way of rationalizing his behavior. I pointed out an exception where someone was abused as a child and did things that were improper as a child and davidt also pointed out children who were exposed as a child that they are considered an onas. The actions of a child aren't considered deliberate.

Very often when people join GYE they feel that they are an onas. It is very normal for someone to feel that way when he sincerely tried everything and he really doesn't want to do it and yet he can't succeed. After being on GYE for a while, using all the tools on GYE and investing in this fight many such people have broken free.

For addicts it might be true that at some point they had no bechira but it would often be because of previous behavior where they did have bechira. I was never an addict but there are many slogans in AA that help in overcoming addiction, even after a person has reached a level where he has no bechira. The same is true for many people who already fell many times who aren't addicted.

As bright wrote, once a person starts fighting the Y"H, the question of whether he has bechira over his falls while he is fighting is irrelevant. I am adding that a person fighting is supposed to use the guilt and shame from his falls as a catalyst for growth and not as a means to beat himself up and give up. Saying that he has no bechira will impede growth. I myself used to think that I was forced to sin and GYE proved me wrong. Today I am a free man. The day will come when you will have succeeded in overcoming your struggles and the argument of not having bechira will be proven wrong.

The Battle of the Generation has a lot to say about bechira. I suggest that you read it regularly.

I disagree.

Powerlessness doesn't mean loss of bechirah.

Regarding the above quoted צדקת הצדיק and Rav Volbe, It is a machlokes, some say that a person can always be held accountable for his actions.
If a person killed someone under the influence of drugs will we say that he can not be held accountable because he had no bechirah when he pressed the trigger? I think every sane judge will convict him for first degree murder.
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Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 18:55 #405895

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Rav Eliyahu Dessler z"l writes that while most of our actions are the result of our past experiences, actions and decisions (i.e. past acts of bechira), and therefore do not qualify currently as bechira, yet every person has a nekudas habechira (a point or area of bechira) where he does experience conflict between the yeitzer hara and the yeitzer hatov.
He compares this to two countries in battle. There is a limited area that constitutes the front - where the battle takes place. The majority of the territory of each country is behind the front, and is not, at that point, involved in the battle. Likewise, the "battle" within each person. Some aveiros are below a person's nekudas habechira (i.e., currently not within the sphere of influence of the yeitzer hara) so that he would not even consider doing them.
Other aveiros are above the person's nekudas habechira so that he wouldn't consider not doing them. The battle is limited to the area where the power of the yeitzer hara and that of the yeitzer hatov are comparable (i.e., the nekudas habechira).
Rav Dessler illustrates this concept with the example of a person who is a long-time member of a gang heavily involved with crime. He may no longer have the bechira to actually stop being involved in criminal activity. He may currently be considered "compelled" to rob a bank. Yet, he may have the bechira not to shoot the bank guard. This, then, is his current nekudas habechira.

RESPONSIBILITY AND REWARD FOR BEHAVIOR
Rav Dessler makes it clear that a person can only be held responsible for behavior over which he has bechira (e.g., a tinok shenishba is obviously not punished for aveiros he is totally unaware of). Likewise, the converse. True reward is only for good behavior over which there is conflict/bechira. (Of course, Hashem does reward good behavior done in non-bechira situations, but it is a much lower form of reward).
If a person once had bechira over an aveira but, due to having become habituated to it, no longer has bechira to avoid it, he is then punished for having allowed himself to fall from the previous level when he still had bechira. The same is true for reward.
It is for this reason, says Rav Dessler, that Lot merited being saved from the destruction of S’dom for not betraying Avraham to Pharaoh (Rashi, Bereishis, 19:29), rather than for the seemingly much greater achievement of risking his life to protect strangers in S’dom. His mesiras nefesh for hachnosas orchim was a result of his training in the house of Avraham, and not a product of bechira, and therefore did not merit special reward.

"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?"
feel free to reach out @  ahavayirah@gmail.com

Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 18:57 #405896

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true_self wrote on 28 Dec 2023 18:41:

yitzchokm wrote on 28 Dec 2023 17:49:

davidt wrote on 28 Dec 2023 15:14:

 צדקת הצדיק · מג 
פעמים יש אדם עומד בניסיון גדול כל כך עד שאי אפשר לו שלא יחטא כד"ש (ברכות לב, א): מה יעשה הבן כו', ובזה הוא נחשב אונס גמור דרחמנא פטריה. וגם בהסתת היצר בתוקף עצום שאי אפשר לנצחו שייך אונס [ואם הש"י הסיב את לבו הרי אין חטא זה חטא כלל, רק שרצון הש"י היה כך] ועמ"ש בכתובות (דף נא:) גבי תחלתו באונס אפי' צוחת לבסוף שאלמלא מניחה היא שוכרתו מותרת לבעלה מ"ט יצר אלבשה הרי דזה מחשב אונס גמור אעפ"י שהוא מרצונה מ"מ יצר גדול כזה א"א באדם לכופו והוא אונס גמור ואין בזה עונש אף דעשה איסור כיון שהי' אנוס.
אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]

I also quoted this recently. It is important to note his last words אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]. In other words, a person has to always combat the Y"H and always do teshuva for the past and he can't use this argument of onas as a way of rationalizing his behavior. I pointed out an exception where someone was abused as a child and did things that were improper as a child and davidt also pointed out children who were exposed as a child that they are considered an onas. The actions of a child aren't considered deliberate.

Very often when people join GYE they feel that they are an onas. It is very normal for someone to feel that way when he sincerely tried everything and he really doesn't want to do it and yet he can't succeed. After being on GYE for a while, using all the tools on GYE and investing in this fight many such people have broken free.

For addicts it might be true that at some point they had no bechira but it would often be because of previous behavior where they did have bechira. I was never an addict but there are many slogans in AA that help in overcoming addiction, even after a person has reached a level where he has no bechira. The same is true for many people who already fell many times who aren't addicted.

As bright wrote, once a person starts fighting the Y"H, the question of whether he has bechira over his falls while he is fighting is irrelevant. I am adding that a person fighting is supposed to use the guilt and shame from his falls as a catalyst for growth and not as a means to beat himself up and give up. Saying that he has no bechira will impede growth. I myself used to think that I was forced to sin and GYE proved me wrong. Today I am a free man. The day will come when you will have succeeded in overcoming your struggles and the argument of not having bechira will be proven wrong.

The Battle of the Generation has a lot to say about bechira. I suggest that you read it regularly.

I disagree.

Powerlessness doesn't mean loss of bechirah.

Regarding the above quoted צדקת הצדיק and Rav Volbe, It is a machlokes, some say that a person can always be held accountable for his actions.
If a person killed someone under the influence of drugs will we say that he can not be held accountable because he had no bechirah when he pressed the trigger? I think every sane judge will convict him for first degree murder.

I think you are actually agreeing, not disagreeing. Maybe he didn’t have bechira not to kill once he was high, but he had bechira not to take the drugs in the first place. 
similarly, the addiction may not be able to hold himself back from indulging, but he has the choice to go join AA (or GYE). 
!אנא עבדא דקודשא בריך הוא

וּבְיָדְךָ כֹּחַ וּגְבוּרָה וּבְיָדְךָ לְגַדֵּל וּלְחַזֵּק לַכֹּל


"If it would be so easy there wouldn't be a GYE, but if it would be impossible there also wouldn't be a GYE."
"Sometimes a hard decision leads to an easier outcome."
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Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 19:34 #405897

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Hi DavidT, thanks for bringing this down. One of the key hashkafa sources on the topic!

Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 20:29 #405900

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yitzchokm wrote on 28 Dec 2023 17:49:

davidt wrote on 28 Dec 2023 15:14:

 צדקת הצדיק · מג 
פעמים יש אדם עומד בניסיון גדול כל כך עד שאי אפשר לו שלא יחטא כד"ש (ברכות לב, א): מה יעשה הבן כו', ובזה הוא נחשב אונס גמור דרחמנא פטריה. וגם בהסתת היצר בתוקף עצום שאי אפשר לנצחו שייך אונס [ואם הש"י הסיב את לבו הרי אין חטא זה חטא כלל, רק שרצון הש"י היה כך] ועמ"ש בכתובות (דף נא:) גבי תחלתו באונס אפי' צוחת לבסוף שאלמלא מניחה היא שוכרתו מותרת לבעלה מ"ט יצר אלבשה הרי דזה מחשב אונס גמור אעפ"י שהוא מרצונה מ"מ יצר גדול כזה א"א באדם לכופו והוא אונס גמור ואין בזה עונש אף דעשה איסור כיון שהי' אנוס.
אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]

I also quoted this recently. It is important to note his last words אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]. In other words, a person has to always combat the Y"H and always do teshuva for the past and he can't use this argument of onas as a way of rationalizing his behavior. I pointed out an exception where someone was abused as a child and did things that were improper as a child and davidt also pointed out children who were exposed as a child that they are considered an onas. The actions of a child aren't considered deliberate.

Very often when people join GYE they feel that they are an onas. It is very normal for someone to feel that way when he sincerely tried everything and he really doesn't want to do it and yet he can't succeed. After being on GYE for a while, using all the tools on GYE and investing in this fight many such people have broken free.

For addicts it might be true that at some point they had no bechira but it would often be because of previous behavior where they did have bechira. I was never an addict but there are many slogans in AA that help in overcoming addiction, even after a person has reached a level where he has no bechira. The same is true for many people who already fell many times who aren't addicted.

As bright wrote, once a person starts fighting the Y"H, the question of whether he has bechira over his falls while he is fighting is irrelevant. I am adding that a person fighting is supposed to use the guilt and shame from his falls as a catalyst for growth and not as a means to beat himself up and give up. Saying that he has no bechira will impede growth. I myself used to think that I was forced to sin and GYE proved me wrong. Today I am a free man. The day will come when you will have succeeded in overcoming your struggles and the argument of not having bechira will be proven wrong.

The Battle of the Generation has a lot to say about bechira. I suggest that you read it regularly.

Very well said, R' Yitzchok! I'm very uncomfortable philosophically with these two sources on bechira as I can see how they can be very easily manipulated and misunderstood, and I'm not familiar and enough with other sources who might agree/disagree and which position is considered the haskafic "consensus" (because hashkafa is not a shmorgasbord where you can pluck any idea out of any sefer and just run with it). Either way, I'm woefully inequipped to even opine on this topic, so this is probably too much said...

Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 20:50 #405902

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davidt wrote on 28 Dec 2023 15:14:
Rav Shlomo Wolbe zt”l writes: 
The great Jewish philosophers established bechira as the cornerstone for the whole Torah.... But from this resulted a common misperception among the masses; that all people actively choose their every act and every decision.

This is on page 156

This is a grievous error. At times a person is faced with such a difficult nisayon (test) that it is indeed impossible for him to overcome and he won't be held responsible for this because he was an anus.

This is not there as far as I can see. Please correct me if Im wrong.
Nothing good grows in the dark. 

Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 21:00 #405903

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bright wrote on 28 Dec 2023 20:50:

davidt wrote on 28 Dec 2023 15:14:
Rav Shlomo Wolbe zt”l writes: 
The great Jewish philosophers established bechira as the cornerstone for the whole Torah.... But from this resulted a common misperception among the masses; that all people actively choose their every act and every decision.

This is on page 156

This is a grievous error. At times a person is faced with such a difficult nisayon (test) that it is indeed impossible for him to overcome and he won't be held responsible for this because he was an anus.

This is not there as far as I can see. Please correct me if Im wrong.

You're right. The quote finishes with these words... וזאת טעות גמורה
The rest of the words (from: At times a person is faced)  are based on צדקת הצדיק אות מג

I fixed the original post
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, who am I? If not now, when?"
feel free to reach out @  ahavayirah@gmail.com
Last Edit: 28 Dec 2023 21:02 by davidt.

Re: Shoin do 28 Dec 2023 22:41 #405905

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true_self wrote on 28 Dec 2023 18:41:



I disagree.

Powerlessness doesn't mean loss of bechirah.

Regarding the above quoted צדקת הצדיק and Rav Volbe, It is a machlokes, some say that a person can always be held accountable for his actions.
If a person killed someone under the influence of drugs will we say that he can not be held accountable because he had no bechirah when he pressed the trigger? I think every sane judge will convict him for first degree murder.

Regarding the Tzidkas Hatzadik I don't see any practical applications. Regarding a murderer, other than a chersh, shotah v'katan and someone who didn't get a hasra'ah everyone is held accountable. The reason may be as Rav Tzadok writes, that humans can never determine that someone was an onas. Ein ladayan elah ma she'einov ro'os. Regarding heavenly punishment it may be different.
Last Edit: 29 Dec 2023 00:04 by yitzchokm.

Re: Shoin do 29 Dec 2023 00:08 #405909

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I think there is only one practical lesson that can be learned from the Tzidkas Hatzadik and that is that even if a person will come up to shamayim after he dies and it will be revealed to him that he was forced to sin he will still not get away with not trying. A person has to fight and give it everything he has even if he will never succeed, no different than the person who fought and overcame all his struggles. This is a very high calling but there is good news. Almost everyone will succeed if they give it everything they have.
Last Edit: 29 Dec 2023 00:25 by yitzchokm.

Re: Shoin do 29 Dec 2023 00:19 #405910

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R wolbes point actually is the other way. That there are many good things we do because of chinuch, outside influence etc. that we are not considered using our koach habechira.
Nothing good grows in the dark. 

Re: Shoin do 29 Dec 2023 05:02 #405919

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I feel somewhat inadequate in posting about this whole discussion about bechira, however, im just wondering, who cares? What if i don't have bechira? I should let myself be miserable? I should keep doing the behaviors that drain my time and energy? 
or say i had bechira every single time i acted out, i should feel guilty for what i did when i was still a clueless kid? (im not saying to not feel guilty, i mean focusing on it in a non productive matter)
ive had a few conversations with my rosh yeshiva about bechira and Hashems master plan, and from what i understood him to say, was basically to not worry about it and keep doing what i have to do. As the saying goes, heaven helps those who help themselves. Or as Napoleon put it, "G-d fights on the side with the best artillery" 
but thank you everyone who weighed in, i definitely gained from your insights
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm" - Winston Churchill

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