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It's all in the name
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TOPIC: It's all in the name 53135 Views

Re: It's all in the name 06 Aug 2025 21:16 #440037

I understood our situation to be that there is a certain amount of pain and pleasure that a person is supposed to have based on his merit. If shimon chooses to hit Reuven c"v than Reuven gets his pain through Shimon. If Shimon doesn't choose to hit Reuven, than Reuven's pain will come from somewhere else.

Re: It's all in the name 06 Aug 2025 22:06 #440042

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simchastorah wrote on 06 Aug 2025 20:48:

bennyh wrote on 06 Aug 2025 19:29:

simchastorah wrote on 06 Aug 2025 04:49:


However - although we know we have bechira, we also know Hashem is fully in control of everything, (though we can't understand this fact, which in our logical framework is a contradiction.) Therefore even if a person did something bmaizid mamash lkol hadayos, and has no tzad in his mind that he can shirk one ounce of responsibility, it's still true to say that it's from Hashem, just like everything else. 

Most rishonim and acharonim and ma’amarei chazal would disagree with this statement.

This is the way of the Izhbitser in Mei Hashiloach and Reb Tzadok and they were criticized for it.

The Rambam is clear in many places that if Hashem were to direct and orchestrate a person’s actions, the entire enterprise of the Torah would be a farce.

The thing we “can’t understand how it works” is yediah and bechira, not hashgacha and bechira. That is an esoteric concept of how Hashem’s knowledge of the future (not His orchestration of the future) must force its existence. 

Saying that Hashem is the actual Orchestrator of our actions and that we are simultaneously responsible for them is a paradox no mainstream Rishon, to my knowledge, has said that we must accept yet “we can’t understand it.”

That is an extra leap that is outside mainstream hashkafa.

We are so fortunate to have you to guide us on the path of mainstream hashkafa, and I'm sure all those rishonim and achronim would be honored to have you letting us know what they would agree with.

If I had known there was a בור המתגלגל rolling around the רה"ר I wouldn't have ventured out, but my toe is already stubbed so I may as well keep strolling around as long as יש בו רק כדי להזיק ולא כדי להמית.

It is not at all out of the mainstream to say that Hashem is fully in control of everything. It's part of the most fundamental thing we say 'about' Hashem - that He is one.

I am talking about yediya and bechira. Yediya does not mean, as you put it, "Hashem's knowledge of the future." Yediya means that everything that exists - the entity and all of it's states - does so through being included in "Hashem's knowledge of himself." This is not Hashem being c'v able to "see into the future", this is Hashem being the source of everything and it's states.

But in the context of hashgacha too, we say Hashem is in complete control of everything.
The chovos halevavos, which most would call main stream, includes in his presentation of bitachon the perspective that no person can harm or help me. Rather it is Hashem alone who does so. So that means if someone hurts me, even though he did so of his own free will, and bears responsibility, I attribute what occurred to Hashem and not to the person. Does that not clearly demonstrate that we must simultaneously accept bechira and Hashem's total control of everything? And to say somehow that "l'gabei me Hashem did it, but l'gabei the guy, he did it" is nonsensical. If we can accept that when someone hurts me it's "coming from Hashem" then it's also true that when I do something wrong it's "coming from Hashem".
(And this that the ramchal writes that the development of רע is מצד the נבראים is not relevant to this conversation)

Wrong.

Here’s the Rambam in his own words at the end of his hakdama to Avos (chapter 8):
הרבה טועים וחושבים על כמה מעשי האדם הבחיריים, שהם הכרחיים לו, כזיווג פלונית, או היות ממון זה בידו, וזה בלתי נכון. אדם זה שגזל ממון פלוני או גנבו, או בגד בו וכחש לו ונשבע לו על ממונו, אם אמרנו שהאלוהים גזר על זה שיגיע ממון זה לידו ושיצא מידו של הלה – הרי שגזר על העבירה? ואין הדבר כן, אלא שבכל מעשי האדם הבחיריים, בהם נמצאים בלא ספק הציות והמרי. כי כבר בררנו בפרק השני שהעשין והלאוין שבתורה אינם אלא במעשים שיש לאדם בהם בחירה לעשותם או שלא לעשותם – ובחלק זה שבנפש מקומה של יראת שמים, ואינה בידי שמים, כי אם מסורה לבחירת האדם, כמו שבארנו.

ומה שאמרו: "הכל בידי שמים" – לא אמרו זה אלא על הדברים הטבעיים, שאין לאדם בחירה בהן, כגון שיהיה ארוך או קצר; או ירידת הגשמים או עצירתם, או קלקול האוויר או צחותו, וכיוצא בזה מכל מה שבעולם. אך לא על תנועות האדם ומנוחותיו.

ואמנם עניין זה שביארוהו חכמים, שהציות והמרי אינם לא בגזרתו יתברך ולא בחפצו, כי אם ברצון האיש, נמשכו בו אחר דברי ירמיה, והוא אמרו: "מפי עליון לא תצא הרעות והטוב" (איכה ג, לח) – כלומר, אין האלוהים גוזר על האדם שיעשה הרעות, ולא שיעשה הטובות. וכיון שכן הוא, ראוי לו לאדם לבכות ולקונן על חטאיו לאחר שפשע בבחירתו. הוא שכתוב אחריו: "מה יתאונן אדם חי, גבר על חטאיו" (איכה ג, לט). וחזר ואמר שרפוי חולי זה בידינו הוא. כי כשם שמריינו בבחירתנו, כך עלינו לחזור בתשובה ולעזוב רשענו. הוא שכתוב אחריו: "נחפשה דרכינו ונחקורה ונשובה עד ה'. נשא לבבנו אל כפים, אל אל בשמים" (איכה ג', מ'–מ"א).

אמנם המאמר המפורסם בין הבריות – ואפשר למצוא מעין זה בשיחת החכמים וכתוב בספרים – שקימת האדם וישיבתו וכל תנועותיו הן בחפץ השם יתברך ורצונו, הוא מאמר נכון רק מצד ידוע, וזה כמי שהשליך אבן באוויר וירדה למטה. אם אמרנו בה: "שבחפץ האלוהים ירדה למטה", הרי זה מאמר נכון, הואיל והאלוהים חפץ שתהיה הארץ בכללה במרכז, ולפיכך כל אימת שהושלך חלק ממנה למעלה, סופו שיתנועע אל המרכז. וכן כל חלק מחלקי האש מתנועע למעלה בחפץ שהיה, שתהא האש מתנועעת למעלה. לא שהאלוהים חפץ עתה, עם תנועת חלק זה מן הארץ, שיתנועע למטה.


ועל האופן הזה יאמר באדם כשקם וישב: "בחפץ אלוהים קם וישב". רצוני לומר, שהושם בטבעו, בעיקר מציאות האדם, שיקום וישב בבחירתו. לא שהוא חפץ עתה בקומו, שיקום או שלא יקום: כשם... כללו של דבר שתאמין: שכשם שחפץ האלוהים שיהיה האדם זקוף הקומה, רחב החזה, בעל אצבעות – כך חפץ שיהא מתנועע ונח מעצמו, ויעשה מעשים בבחירתו, אין כופה אותו בהם ולא מעכב בידו, כמו שהתבאר בתורת אמת.

Last Edit: 06 Aug 2025 23:27 by bennyh.

Re: It's all in the name 06 Aug 2025 23:55 #440045

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bennyh wrote on 06 Aug 2025 19:29:

simchastorah wrote on 06 Aug 2025 04:49:


However - although we know we have bechira, we also know Hashem is fully in control of everything, (though we can't understand this fact, which in our logical framework is a contradiction.) Therefore even if a person did something bmaizid mamash lkol hadayos, and has no tzad in his mind that he can shirk one ounce of responsibility, it's still true to say that it's from Hashem, just like everything else. 

Most rishonim and acharonim and ma’amarei chazal would disagree with this statement.

This is the way of the Izhbitser in Mei Hashiloach and Reb Tzadok and they were criticized for it.

The Rambam is clear in many places that if Hashem were to direct and orchestrate a person’s actions, the entire enterprise of the Torah would be a farce.

The thing we “can’t understand how it works” is yediah and bechira, not hashgacha and bechira. That is an esoteric concept of how Hashem’s knowledge of the future (not His orchestration of the future) must force its existence. 

Saying that Hashem is the actual Orchestrator of our actions and that we are simultaneously responsible for them is a paradox no mainstream Rishon, to my knowledge, has said that we must accept yet “we can’t understand it.”

That is an extra leap that is outside mainstream hashkafa.

Far be it from me to get involved in this debate, as i have not studied the sources, however I will point to a mareh makom that would be considered main stream in chasidus (I have mentioned this before,  and I've heard mainstream משפיעים quoting it), the אמרי נועם on אסף ה‘ את חרפתי basically says that hashem is involved in every חטא as he was involved in מכירת יוסף, and that takes away from the shame, the חרפה of a חוטא.

I will add that from the סוגיות in פרק חלק about all those who don't have a chelek in עולם הבא, it feels like there's a master plan to all the evil and transgressions in this world.
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Last Edit: 07 Aug 2025 00:03 by mggsbms.

Re: It's all in the name 07 Aug 2025 03:45 #440055

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Interesting mareh makom. I just looked it up. He doesn’t say it so open like the Izhbitzer. He says that the fact that Hashem created such a thing as the yetzer hara puts most, if not all the blame on Hashem. He leaves enough ambiguity in his words to allow for human culpability. 

Any such quote is a tzarich iyun which needs to be farentfert, not the other way around.

Re: It's all in the name 07 Aug 2025 11:33 #440064

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bennyh wrote on 07 Aug 2025 03:45:
Interesting mareh makom. I just looked it up. He doesn’t say it so open like the Izhbitzer. He says that the fact that Hashem created such a thing as the yetzer hara puts most, if not all the blame on Hashem. He leaves enough ambiguity in his words to allow for human culpability. 

Any such quote is a tzarich iyun which needs to be farentfert, not the other way around.

These quotes can be saying "the quiet part at loud" so to speak, it is expected from a person to use as much bechira as he has,  and pronouncing that everything is predestined will have a detrimental effect. 

There are other such quotes from "mainstream" Hashkafic sources, the חתם סופר that בחירה could be only tefilah sometimes, Rav dessler says something like that to,  and Rav Hutner on the "sod" of Yom kippur, why there is a blanket כפרה בעיצומו של יום, (although that can be Ishbetze Torah).
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Last Edit: 07 Aug 2025 11:34 by mggsbms.

Re: It's all in the name 07 Aug 2025 14:42 #440068

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You’ll have to show me that Chasam Sofer because the Chasam Sofer says in several places that the pasuk יש נספה בלא משפט means that Hashem will not stop a ba’al bechira from taking a person’s life , even if death wasn’t decreed on that person (which is a massive discussion that I didn’t want to get into because here we’re talking about bechira for aveiros), על אחת כמה וכמה when it comes to personal aveiros.

Re: It's all in the name 07 Aug 2025 16:32 #440074

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If we want obscure Rishonim to justify the way we feel, Rabeinu Crescas says there's no free will in action and bechira is limited to choosing how you identify/feel about the actions you did. Don't ask me for the source, I believe I saw it in Rabbi Tatz's Will, Freedom, and Destiny but idk where it is inside.

It's academic anyway (or as we say around here, "philosphizin'). Doesn't matter who you blame; whether you blame G-d, yourself, or your mother/wife/neighbor's wife. Blame ain't very helpful. Doing the next right thing is. 
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!

Re: It's all in the name 07 Aug 2025 16:55 #440077

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bennyh wrote on 07 Aug 2025 14:42:
You’ll have to show me that Chasam Sofer because the Chasam Sofer says in several places that the pasuk יש נספה בלא משפט means that Hashem will not stop a ba’al bechira from taking a person’s life , even if death wasn’t decreed on that person (which is a massive discussion that I didn’t want to get into because here we’re talking about bechira for aveiros), על אחת כמה וכמה when it comes to personal aveiros.

I haven't found the exact quote, however have a look at תורת משה הפטרת פרשת בלק and חתם סופר על התורה שמות ל"ט ע"א where he expounds on בחירה and how much of it is based on רצון not מעשה. It may well be that these מראה מקומות are the source of the above quote, that I have heard repeated often.
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Last Edit: 07 Aug 2025 16:59 by mggsbms.

Re: It's all in the name 07 Aug 2025 16:57 #440078

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And if we’re on the topic of fringe ideas in the rishonim, the Ralbag in Milchamos Hashem holds that Hashem doesn’t even know the future (yikes!), and that that isn’t a chisaron in His completeness at all.
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