And for further clarification, when I said, "This is not just a coincidence. Speaking from personal experiences as someone who was also a top bachur and still shteigs a lot, I feel that they are very related. That is, I not only know that Chazal tell me they are related, I actually have witnessed and felt their connection in my own life."
I was not saying that Torah brings on fantasies... Chas v'Shalom! I was just saying that the כח of fantasizing is related to the כח of learning, as I thought was clear from the context of those statements.

Quote: That is, I not only know that Chazal tell me they are related....

Where, pray tell?

cordnoy wrote on 04 Apr 2022 22:32:

In my opinion, it's pshat in the Rambam I put above.
If the discussion is now only about whether I have a makor for my theory, I'm happy. I just didn't want anyone to think that I think learning Torah brings on fantasies.

5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 05 Apr 2022 00:18:

The Rambam says exactly the opposite or 90% opposite, but nowhere close to your thesis.

I usually don't nitpick, but perhaps it's the "top bochur" title that is eggin' me on. The Rambam says somethin' very simple: an empty mind leads to unwarranted and inappropriate thoughts. And if one occupies himself with learning Torah, he will be saved.

Please enlighten us: where do you see that an intelligent deep thinker in Torah tends to fantasize wildly?

If I may chime in here with my opinion (just that), I was told when I was already in Yeshiva Gedolah that I was above average, (top is a big word) although I never believed it because of my low self esteem, today I am aware of my abilities in learning. When I was younger I would day dream all day never did well in school and I was told that I was a failure. My fantasy doesn't help me in learning, until today it can be a struggle to focus when I am struck with a fantasy. 

About those sources, I understand them to be taken literal; your brain is filled with Torah, no space for anything else, or always learning, no time for anything else. To me, this only makes sense for guys who can occupy their entire brain space and time with Torah, for guys like me, who want to have both, these Chaza"l may not be relevant. I think it's foolish for me to think that I can view/fantasize and somehow my learning will magically take away the desires for lust. This can be compared to someone trying to lose weight who exercises but doesn't change his eating habits. 

Next opinion, "top guy" or not "top guy", I see everyone struggling. If you want you may be able to say that guys who are deep emotionally often struggle with addictive behaviors. 

@cordny was probably "Top Bachur" in his time, that's why he is taking this apart.

cordnoy wrote on 05 Apr 2022 00:54:

I theorize (yes, just a theory) that the greater one's capacity to learn, the greater his capacity to fantasize. I'm not saying this is the only factor in addiction; of course not. I know there are dozens of factors that go into who is נכשל and I also realize that nearly everyone is struggling.
As for the Rambam, you can disagree with my understanding of the Rambam. If my pshat is bad and you therefore don't want to call me a top bachur, beseder.
If I encounter another source, I will with G-d's help remember to return to this thread and post it.

the term "top bochur" always sounded like BS to me. what makes someone top? Who decides? society? Please. god knows whos top.

cordnoy wrote on 05 Apr 2022 00:54:

Hi cordnoy. Again, I think you are misquoting and misinterpreting me when you say that I have said "an intelligent deep thinker in Torah tends to fantasize wildly". I do not believe that is true and I did not write those words. I only posit that a more gifted mind has more potential to fantasize, not that he actually has to. I believe that intellectual capacity enables a person both to learn and to fantasize. The smarter you are, the more good you can do with your mind and the more bad you can do with your mind, G-d forbid. You choose how you use it. It can go either way. I read that Rambam in this context and I think it fits nicely. You don't have to agree with me and if you don't like my pshat you don't have to consider me a top bachur
And I certainly agree with willnevergiveup that there are many aspects here and of course almost everyone struggles with this.
Shalom.

Sorry 5Uu80*cdwB#^, but besides for bringing more sources could you also explain how you see the two to be related? Personally I can't begin to see the connection. What does the capacity to think deeply, past the superficial, and fine-tuning one's understanding of often abstract truths that delving into a sugya involves, have to do with the capacity to fantasize superficial, shallow nonsense?

Is this not a simple pshat in the Rambam quoted, that if a person is 'אסור במושכלו' and grounded in the truths of chochmo, he won't be 'חפשי בדמיונו' and fly off to fantasy land?

I'll think about this iwillmanage.

5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 05 Apr 2022 15:59:

Please let us know your translation and explanation of the Rambam.

The op joined yesterday. He took the hard step of posting about himself with a brief description.  May I respectfully suggest that most of the discussion beyond the first few posts be taken to a separate thread.  Let’s keep it relevant for the op.