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TOPIC: My Dilemma 284 Views

Re: My Dilemma 03 Sep 2020 04:29 #354548

  • Captain
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Nothing. They can be great. It's just that in certain situations, the person is not ready to listen.
I can't talk for anyone else. But that was my situation. I was so convinced not only of the negative thoughts but that these thoughts were held of by my rebbeim, that it would not have helped no matter what any therapist would have told me.
I'll try to elaborate a little. But it's late and we can discuss this further later. But sometimes, a person can get the feeling that the littlest thing he did wrong can't be atoned for (oh of course it could be atoned for, if he does a REAL teshuva which of course involves 20 steps and feeling bad forever and ever and ever and that anyway I probably won't attain) and that because of that he for sure will be going to hell, which one second there is worse than all the terrible suffering he's going through in this world. And that all his suffering in this world is because of his sins that is mentioned realistically he's not going to be able to really atone for and fully get rid of. And he becomes convinced that this is what his rebbeim believe, that when we die it will be terrible and in this world it will be terrible and we are terrible unless we live up to standards that the Holy Avos were not able to. This is what it sounds like his rebbeim said in their speeches, etc. (Keep in mind that I went through this at a period of time that I was not struggling with temptation. Could you imagine if I was?) So how is such a person going to be convinced otherwise by someone he does not think knows as much as his rebbeim or is not as frum as them? At best he feels comfort that deep down he views as fake. (Again, this is surely not felt by the majority of people, but for the minority who do, you can see how it's a catch-22 and many times a frum therapist can't help, at least not alone. Maybe together with the involvement of one of the Gedolim or at least a big rabbi.)
Again, I hope I explained this a little but it's late and I hope to continue the discussion at a later point.
In the place where ba’alei teshuva stand, even pure tzaddikim who never sinned cannot stand. (Rabbi Avohu, Brachos 34b)

Great free resources:
My favorite book for breaking free: The Battle of the Generation https://guardyoureyes.com/ebooks/item/the-battle-of-the-generation. Change your attitude and change your life!

Rabbi Shafier's incredible lectures on breaking free: The Fight. Download here: https://theshmuz.com/series/the-fight/
Last Edit: 03 Sep 2020 04:31 by Captain.

Re: My Dilemma 03 Sep 2020 06:47 #354550

  • wilnevergiveup
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Captain wrote on 03 Sep 2020 04:29:
Nothing. They can be great. It's just that in certain situations, the person is not ready to listen.
I can't talk for anyone else. But that was my situation. I was so convinced not only of the negative thoughts but that these thoughts were held of by my rebbeim, that it would not have helped no matter what any therapist would have told me.
I'll try to elaborate a little. But it's late and we can discuss this further later. But sometimes, a person can get the feeling that the littlest thing he did wrong can't be atoned for (oh of course it could be atoned for, if he does a REAL teshuva which of course involves 20 steps and feeling bad forever and ever and ever and that anyway I probably won't attain) and that because of that he for sure will be going to hell, which one second there is worse than all the terrible suffering he's going through in this world. And that all his suffering in this world is because of his sins that is mentioned realistically he's not going to be able to really atone for and fully get rid of. And he becomes convinced that this is what his rebbeim believe, that when we die it will be terrible and in this world it will be terrible and we are terrible unless we live up to standards that the Holy Avos were not able to. This is what it sounds like his rebbeim said in their speeches, etc. (Keep in mind that I went through this at a period of time that I was not struggling with temptation. Could you imagine if I was?) So how is such a person going to be convinced otherwise by someone he does not think knows as much as his rebbeim or is not as frum as them? At best he feels comfort that deep down he views as fake. (Again, this is surely not felt by the majority of people, but for the minority who do, you can see how it's a catch-22 and many times a frum therapist can't help, at least not alone. Maybe together with the involvement of one of the Gedolim or at least a big rabbi.)
Again, I hope I explained this a little but it's late and I hope to continue the discussion at a later point.

I think we are on the same page here, but in my case a non "Rebbi type" therapist just "didn't get what Hashem is really about".

I needed the "yeshivish type" therapist to tell me that I was pushing too hard, or my guilt was unhealthy and not what Hashem wanted, and that Hashem doesn't want me to be perfect, just average.

All the best,
Wilnevergiveup
Check out My thread

Daily Dose of Clarity

(עשה רצונו כרצונך (אבות,ב:ד

Feel free to email me  wilnevergiveupgye@gmail.com

Re: My Dilemma 03 Sep 2020 13:12 #354556

  • Grant400
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A frum therapist who deals with this (most probably do), has experience with all your "lawyeristic" arguments. He has already spoken to big rabbanim about all these aspects or will have access to them to ask questions for you. He can quote names with answers that will help.

But the main thing is, is that all these negative thoughts are coming from somewhere. From some type of anxiety of some sort. The average yid heard all the "scary stuff " you did and doesn't react this way. He understands the point of his rebbeims mussar, but doesn't get all freaked out and lose his equilibrium because of it. Why? Because he doesn't suffer from anxiety or depression or whatever mental illness that causes him to blow things out of proportion.

The Average person can quote every speech he heard about gehenim and still not be fazed or have his feathers ruffled. He understands the objective of the mitzvos and the intent of yiddishkeit and knows God isn't waiting to strike him down. He's does his best and he's content. If you ask him "Isn't it possible you might go to hell because of this and this?" He will respond "yes!", "so are you nervous? How do you function? " the response will be "eh...".

Basically my point is that at the end of the day someone who suffers from these thoughts, until he actually deals with them in a real and healthy manner, all the excuses why the therapist isn't good or helpful or why in his specific situation it doesn't help, is ALL a symptom of what he should be going to the therapist for. It's not a legitimate reason, it's all part of the problem he's suffering from. (I'm referring to excuses, not legitimately not liking or connecting to the therapist which is paramount).

                                  Grant 
I can be reached at: Grant.400@yahoo.com

Re: My Dilemma 03 Sep 2020 13:47 #354557

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I'm somewhere between the 2 of you. I agree with what you are saying, Grant. Of course the reason is because the person is viewing things with twisted logic. But it was not as an excuse. It was more as comment to a person who clearly has a certain viewpoint and says that he tried therapy and it didn't work, like Chancy said. And like you noted. I think he has to be much smarter with his next attempt, instead of just going to a frum therapist. He needs to plan in advance that the right people are there that he will be comfortable listening to. And I agree with Wilnevergiveup too, that finding the right person that he might listen to is very wise and it might be that the other therapist won't be able to help but this one will. But I am also aware of certain unique cases and circumstances where even that was not enough, because of the unique way the person became convinced of his negative feelings. (There's a lot more to say on this topic, but many of the things would not be proper to post on a public forum. There are always different twists, etc. If anyone feels that they would benefit personally lemaaseh from further discussion, please PM me.)
In the place where ba’alei teshuva stand, even pure tzaddikim who never sinned cannot stand. (Rabbi Avohu, Brachos 34b)

Great free resources:
My favorite book for breaking free: The Battle of the Generation https://guardyoureyes.com/ebooks/item/the-battle-of-the-generation. Change your attitude and change your life!

Rabbi Shafier's incredible lectures on breaking free: The Fight. Download here: https://theshmuz.com/series/the-fight/
Last Edit: 03 Sep 2020 13:49 by Captain.

Re: My Dilemma 03 Sep 2020 15:45 #354563

  • Grant400
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@Captain: I agree with willnevergiveup 100%. I was responding to what you wrote that a regular frum therapist isn't necessarily enough and a rav is needed along with a regular frum therapist. I was saying that that particular thought stems from the problem itself.

Sorry for not being clear, I just didn't want to quote your whole post because I was addressing only one specific point. 
I can be reached at: Grant.400@yahoo.com

Re: My Dilemma 03 Sep 2020 22:00 #354576

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I think a good chaver can be very helpful too..........  It was a GYE fellow that held my hand and saved me........
Feel free to contact me at michelgelner@gmail.com

My threads: Lessons Learned: guardyoureyes.com/forum/20-Important-Threads/335248-Lessons-Learned

                    My Story and G-d Bless GYE: guardyoureyes.com/forum/17-Balei-Battims-Forum/303036-My-story-and-G-d-bless-GYE
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