Workingguy wrote on 17 Oct 2018 23:36:

As per the forum rules:
10.) We encourage everyone to share what works for them, or how they view recovery. We ask, however, that no member "put down" or "prove wrong" or "discredit" any other approaches to recovery that may be working for other members. For example, the 12-Step program works well for many members of our community. We have had to block members in the past who repeatedly tried to discredit the 12-Step method on our forum, causing a lot of machlokes and confusion. It is Ok to ask questions, but it is not Ok to continually insist on discrediting any method that works for others.

Workingguy wrote on 17 Oct 2018 23:36:

The mitzva of don't stand by the blood of your brother made it an obligatory comment before your imaginary reasoning could have kicked in.

CBT alone doesn't help addicts. That much I know. And GYE is not well versed in CBT, I know that as well.

i-man wrote on 17 Oct 2018 22:59:

I didn't say it's a contradiction. It's what he wants. Even if it were a contradiction, he'a free to explore that approach anyway. I was just making sure that CBT is not going to address his masturbation directly. I think the clarification is warranted, considering that this forum doesn't treat depression and anxiety, which is what CBT can treat successfully.

mzl wrote on 18 Oct 2018 00:58:

Dear MZL,
All of us around here at GYE have one thing in common and one thing only, and that is "doing whatever it takes to stay clean and keep away from porn, masturbation etc.", now being right or wrong is totally irreverent and not up for discussion here.
Now of course you 'may' be right, but if your approach or mindset does not work for someone else then why bother the argument. If we were to always only do whats right then we would have never been addicted to what we were/are in the first place, our goal here is not to fix each other rather it is to help each other - each in their own way. And what worked for me does not necessarily work for someone else. Now personally I was in touch with lots of people and I was really amazed to see that every one has their own way to stay clean. (to be honest some ideas that people shared with me sounded a little off to me), but if that is what works for them (even if only a little bit) then that's the best for them and that's what they should be doing. so mocking or downgrading someone else approach - even if in your eyes he is totally wrong -  goes against all that we believe in and looking for around here.
I hope my point is clear, all the best!

gyehelp2017 wrote on 18 Oct 2018 19:01:

I couldn't agree more.

But I also think that if you really want to help someone and you see him banging his head against a wall and you don't tell him what he's doing wrong (even just point him to the Handbook, for crying out loud) then you are not doing what you wrote above.

Hope it's finally clear.

mzl wrote on 18 Oct 2018 00:58:

 Do me a favor; you don’t want to start having a match with me about מאמרי חזל. כשם שמצוה לומר דבר הנשמע כך מצצה שלא לומר....

And met me ask you.....did you save him by not standing by or did you alienate him and push him away? You didn’t save him so your assessment was wrong.

You’ve argues with everyone on this forum; how about sitting back with a little humility and listening to people with more experience and success with you?

And I did CBT and am well versed, as are many people here. I’ve written about it here; so have others. Markz might be able to find it. 

But seriously, chill out. 

Workingguy wrote on 19 Oct 2018 20:02:

Nope, sorry, still not convinced.

But I think you are a dangerous guy who thinks that ideas are correct if and only if they come from certain people.

I will try to read your posts and see if I can figure out how you work. Maybe that big 800 number you are showing off means something really impressive, and maybe it doesn't ...

To workinguy and others here:

Take heart! For mzl has consistently pretended that he has figured people out, then criticized them - not their ideas. I believe that his technique takes a valid disagreement and makes it  personal. That makes it threatening, and gives him the upper hand because most people feel threatened by, 'heh, I've-got-you-figured-out' statements. I do not claim to know why he responds in those ways, but it is often a power thing. Once someone is on the defensive, the argument is on a different basis - a basis that I'm guessing mzl is pretty comfortable with, for whatever reason. 

I've poured out my heart in posts to hima and avoided debate as well as I could. My statements usually are usually honestly framed as being my opinion and experience rather than, "oh yeah?!" arguments and criticism that he has often used. But just look at most of his responses...to me they appear to be mostly condescending and personal criticism. I believe that if he'd read his own thread as though it were a back and forth between two random people instead of himself, he'd see all this clearly. Nu. 

I suggest you ignore whatever he writes that sounds condescending to you or like a power-play, and just let him fry his own fish rather than yours.

But of course it's 100% up to you and you may not need anyone to tell you anything I've written. This is just my own angle.

Enjoy!

Dov wrote on 21 Oct 2018 00:51:

Dov,

Thanks for the support. At this point it’s more amusing than anything else, although probably not to the people who he’s threatening.

Workingguy wrote on 21 Oct 2018 03:02:

Still waiting for Dov to address the allegations that you are making about me.

If you want me to address his allegations, mzl, first direct me to them. I don't know what allegations he's made about you. All I've read were your allegations about him. 

Dov wrote on 21 Oct 2018 11:25:

I see. I read every new post ...

mzl wrote on 21 Oct 2018 13:48:

This is getting so boring, and HHM asked all of us not to engage much, so let me see if I can put a period at the end of the sentence.

MZL felt that what someone was advocating for themselves as a way to overcome their struggles was pure baloney, and he told them as much- because it is his obligation not to stand by his brother’s blood.

The person he said it to expressed dismay that he would be challenged after sharing like that, and was worried about exactly such a response, as he had been off the forum for a while and didn’t come back because he was afraid of such responses.

I criticized mzl for the way that he reacted and spoke. And now we’re in this back and forth.

So on some level, it is my responsibility that this current back and forth is happening, and it is indeed negative. I have to admit that one of the things that drew me into the conversation is that I’ve been watching MZL’s comments and threads for a long time and while I don’t believe he intends to troll, sometimes it just seems like he is.

But who who am I to judge? And I clearly see that the back and forth is ineffective and detrimental, so as we say, whatever.

I’ll follow the ever wonderful advice of HHM and try to keep it positive, and if the need comes to comment I’ll try to keep it in the proper context of MZL’s general responses to opinions other than his.