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Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments
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TOPIC: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 3158 Views

Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 17:35 #336214

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Hope I'm posting this in the correct category.

I'm 22 and recently started working after 4 years in Yeshiva.

I've been having wet dreams for the past 6+ years; averaging 2-3 times per week. I've been quite ambivalent about this, trying not to think about them.

Even though I try to keep my eyes to myself, it is inevitable that at some points through the day I will look a moment or two longer than I should and have sexual thoughts. Later in the day, these people can often 'pop up' in my mind. Often my dreams will feature women I was around, even though I didn't have any sexual thoughts about them.

I've read (e.g. in this thread guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/55920-wet-dreams) how nocturnal emissions that occur without having any inappropriate thoughts during the day is totally normal and there is no aveirah involved. Accordingly, it would seem to be that any emission that can be connected to the previous day was an aveira.

I would appreciate clarification on what is considered an issue. On one extreme one could argue that one should quit one's job, find one in a totally modest environment and avoid public transport.

I am pretty sure that this is not the right approach, but I feel somewhat conflicted about doing certain things. I'm part of a very competitive  entrepreneurship program (there are about 36 of us out of close to 600 applicants) which naturally involves spending a lot of time interacting together with the rest of the cohort. I feel guilty that I haven't asked someone about the halachic acceptability of myself participating in the program as I don't feel comfortable sharing how often I have emissions. 

Similarly, there are public talks and events (not part of the entrepreneurship program) that I would like to attend - sometimes as I am interested in the topics, sometimes for potential business development opportunities and sometimes for personal development. Even though I don't want to, it's pretty much inevitable that I will double glance and perhaps have sexual thoughts about people present or on the way to the event. Similarly, one can expect that there will be people dressed will halachikally objectionable necklines etc.

I would really appreciate clarification on how to approach whether someone in my situation can attend such events & programming as well as working in a non-Jewish environment among women.

Thank you in advance!

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 18:34 #336217

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I won't get involved in the halachah discussion, but wet dreams two or three times a week is a bit extreme.
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Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 19:41 #336221

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Torah292 wrote on 14 Oct 2018 17:35:
Hope I'm posting this in the correct category.

I'm 22 and recently started working after 4 years in Yeshiva.

I've been having wet dreams for the past 6+ years; averaging 2-3 times per week. I've been quite ambivalent about this, trying not to think about them.

Even though I try to keep my eyes to myself, it is inevitable that at some points through the day I will look a moment or two longer than I should and have sexual thoughts. Later in the day, these people can often 'pop up' in my mind. Often my dreams will feature women I was around, even though I didn't have any sexual thoughts about them.

I've read (e.g. in this thread guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/55920-wet-dreams) how nocturnal emissions that occur without having any inappropriate thoughts during the day is totally normal and there is no aveirah involved. Accordingly, it would seem to be that any emission that can be connected to the previous day was an aveira.

I would appreciate clarification on what is considered an issue. On one extreme one could argue that one should quit one's job, find one in a totally modest environment and avoid public transport.

I am pretty sure that this is not the right approach, but I feel somewhat conflicted about doing certain things. I'm part of a very competitive  entrepreneurship program (there are about 36 of us out of close to 600 applicants) which naturally involves spending a lot of time interacting together with the rest of the cohort. I feel guilty that I haven't asked someone about the halachic acceptability of myself participating in the program as I don't feel comfortable sharing how often I have emissions. 

Similarly, there are public talks and events (not part of the entrepreneurship program) that I would like to attend - sometimes as I am interested in the topics, sometimes for potential business development opportunities and sometimes for personal development. Even though I don't want to, it's pretty much inevitable that I will double glance and perhaps have sexual thoughts about people present or on the way to the event. Similarly, one can expect that there will be people dressed will halachikally objectionable necklines etc.

I would really appreciate clarification on how to approach whether someone in my situation can attend such events & programming as well as working in a non-Jewish environment among women.

Thank you in advance!

I almost never dream, and the last wet dream I remember was when I was 11 years old. However I know what it's like to stare at women (and sometimes men) at work etc. You can still use well-known tools like surrender.

I think the question about halacha may be a way to give yourself a pass to be in school with sexy-looking women. The Mesillas Yesharim in the chapter on cleanliness tells you what you need to know if you truly care about halacha. You are not permitted to think about sexy women, look at them, or listen to them or touch them. That's the emes. Draw your conclusions.

I'm guessing you are stringly motivated to be a successful businessman though, and perhaps conflicted on this, and yet you don't seek out p*rn. How about getting married?

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 20:12 #336224

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If your only issue is wet dreams; you avoid pornography/masturbation, then maybe it's time to ask your rebbi if you are ready for marriage. Regarding how to ask a shaila from a rav about being in a specific work environment, you do not need to mention the wet dreams. All you need to say is that the atmosphere is one that causes nisyonos. The rav will understand.... 
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Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 22:30 #336228

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I often have a streak of 4 or 5 dry nights, but very rarely over 8. Do you have any suggestions??

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 22:32 #336229

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cordnoy wrote on 14 Oct 2018 18:34:
I won't get involved in the halachah discussion, but wet dreams two or three times a week is a bit extreme.

I often have a streak of 4 or 5 dry nights, but very rarely over 8. Do you have any suggestions??

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 22:39 #336230

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I'm definitely not seeking anyone out ( on the contrary, I try to avoid people who may give me hirhurim) and definitely do not watch or do anything inappropriate.

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 22:43 #336231

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Torah292 wrote on 14 Oct 2018 22:32:

cordnoy wrote on 14 Oct 2018 18:34:
I won't get involved in the halachah discussion, but wet dreams two or three times a week is a bit extreme.

I often have a streak of 4 or 5 dry nights, but very rarely over 8. Do you have any suggestions?

I suggest you learn how to never get turned on around scantily dressed business women. What happens if you try not to look at them / think about them? Do you feel like it's irresistible?

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 23:18 #336232

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I do not get 'turned on' so easily and I don't continuously think about people either. 

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 14 Oct 2018 23:32 #336233

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Torah292 wrote on 14 Oct 2018 23:18:
I do not get 'turned on' so easily and I don't continuously think about people either. 

I don't get turned on either in the sense that I don't usually have an erection, but my sperm builds up anyway. Then after a while my "propensity" to have sex thoughts skyrockets. I'm guessing that's what happens in your dreams. Just a guess I'm afraid.

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 15 Oct 2018 00:04 #336234

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It sounds like you are one special holy yid. You are careful not to get aroused and have BH avoided inappropriate material. My very humble opinion is that you should ignore the wet dreams except to daven at krias shma al hamita time that Hashem should keep you tahor. Sleeping with your feet (toes) uncovered is brought as advisable to stay clean. Don't obsess with the issue. The more chassidish inclined (and Rav Chaim Kanievsky and some other litvishe gedolim) would suggest going to the mikva when it happens, but again only if that does not put you in the mindset of being busy with this.

At the same time, it does appear to be a little excessive from a medical vantage point. You may want your doctor to test your testosterone level.

Either way, hatzlocho. Keep on being a loyal soldier as you seem to be  so beautifully doing. 
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Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 15 Oct 2018 01:47 #336236

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Also sleeping your side should ensure that you don't get an erection at night. No erection, no ejaculation.

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 18 Oct 2018 11:17 #336372

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Hatzlacha Rabbah! Thank you for being so open about something that is uncomfortable to bring up and be honest about. The more honest we each are about our nisyonos, the more we bring these issues out in the open, address them, feel better about ourselves, and become closer to Hashem.

i am not a doctor, but to echo others' sentiments, it does sound like this is happening more than the average, so you may want t consult a doctor knowledgeable in this phiseology. 

I will I'll tell you something that often helps for me - realizing that these women are just people like you- trying to make a livelihood and experience the ups and downs of life just like you. They may not be frum or Jewish, but they are humans.   I also pass by or work with women who are not dressed modestly, which is unfortunate. However,  my thoughts regarding the women who are part of my group, and who I have gotten to know in a professional setting are not as lustful as they had been, because I now see them as other human beings who also are looking to live life. Of course, it's extremely important to set boundaries, such as obviously Shomer negiah ( there are those who allow shaking hands - so I wouldn't worry much about that) and being very careful about Yichud issues. These Halachos exist not because women are these drugs but because they are people and unless certain circumstances are met, we may not behave or treat them in the proper ways befitting ourselves as Hashem's representatives on Earth. I hope that perspective is helpful for you- feel free to reach out at alwaysresilience@gmail.com to discuss more or connect, as I also grow from discussing these challenges.

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 19 Oct 2018 04:28 #336396

My two cents: First off, I don't think there is a medical issue here. Not gonna back up that statement with any type of reasoning (in case you were wondering). 

I've had a similar experience actually. In fact, I had em even more often than you, cause it was just about every night (although they weren't usually dreams, just the wet part). 

My anecdotal and strictly unscientific advice: 1. Try to keep your stress levels down. I wasn't necessarily lusting on days when I had the wet dreams, but I was usually stressed. Our subconscious desire for that type of release is increased when we are stressed, so this might be playing a role. 2. Make sure aren't too warm. Turn up the AC if you need to, and make sure you have good cotton sheets, none of that polyester sweat inducing junk. 3. Take your showers in the morning. This takes some of the pressure off. At least for me, the gross factor wasn't fun. 4. Stop thinking about this NOW. The mind is super powerful, more than we realize. If you make it a thing that you have wet dreams 2 - 3 times a week it becomes a thing. If you just don't worry too much about it, it'll probably sort itself out. In my case it certainly did, and I rarely have such dreams nowadays. 

Hope that's useful! 

Re: Halachic permissibility of non-Jewish environments 28 Oct 2018 12:07 #336727

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So I think I've only had 2/3 wet dreams in the past 2 weeks which is good.

On the one hand people are saying to ignore when this happens - the thing is the dreams were sexualized and I know I can do better with my shmiras einayim. Whilst I'm not caught in a ruminating trap of guilt, I do feel a sense of guilt.

Any thoughts?

Another question: From a halachik standpoint, what should one do when a woman presenting has more than a square tefach below their collarbone revealed and one has no hirhurim from them?
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