bb0212 wrote on 26 May 2017 05:56:

You may be thinking of the halachos of an "oness u'mefateh."

From Oxford dictionary:
Definition of marital rape in English:
NOUN

• Rape committed by the person to whom the victim is married.

Markz wrote on 25 May 2017 18:18:

Why is cajoling not kosher? I think that people on this site who are working toward recovery get way too carried away about generalizing in this specific instance. I remember one time that I was complaining to Dr. Sorotzkin about how awful it is to cajole, and he disagreed. He said that in a normal healthy relationships, it is not uncommon for women do you need cajoling and to be entirely happy with their intimate relationship with their husband. He also said that cajoling like that is not selfish.

i'm talking about in a healthy relationship and not an addict and one so it's obviously different. But in a healthy one, there are going to be times when her husband is interested, times when your wife is interested, times when they want to go to her parents for Shabbos, times when they want to go to his parents for Shabbos, times when she would love for him to come shopping with her, times and he would love her to watch a movie with him, and they will cajole and the other person will come along because they love their spouse and would like to make them happy.

I remember when we were learning Hilchos Nida, and it spoke about one of the rabbis who used to eat with his wife before she went to immerse because otherwise she wouldn't be in the mood. In fact, Dr. Sorotzkin said that Piyus- appeasement- if you read what the rabbis to say about it really seems to sometimes be cajoling.

that having been said, what Kourtni is saying is something else. When cajoling will just end up being a form of manipulation to get the other person to do what you want and it's not ultimately for the benefit of the relationship or in a manner that will make the other person feel loved, then of course you shouldn't do it. And there maybe there may be instances here on this site where what people do come close to marital rape, but I would actually venture that most of them are not even close to that.

The reason why am posting this is because I think it's important not to be overzealous and not get taken seriously when we paint everything in such broad terms.

Cajolin'

persuade someone to do somethin' by sustained coaxin' or flattery.

It is very different for those in the world and those on this site. Those in the world are doin' piyus. Those here (many of us) are manipulatin' or rapin'.

Now, of course, if we split the damn site already, it will all be fine and dandy.

Workingguy wrote on 26 May 2017 14:33:

And I'm sorry but sometimes it depends on the subject. Here we have a fellow who has admittedly been lustin' and masturbatin' (in sin) for quite some time, and seemingly hasn't done too much productive work to get out of this sticky mess, and then he comes here sayin' that he wants sex with his wife seven or eight times a month (how did one even come to that number?) And this is on the "off day" of actin' out in the library, and he says that his wife doesn't want. Now, Mr. Workin', is he cajolin', or is he usin' her body (word changed by moderator) as a sperm bank?

AndAnd by the way, Mr nerdy, I was the same as you until I decided to get help. B'hatzlachah to you.

This discussion is awesome. 

LifneiHashem wrote on 26 May 2017 15:11:

Glad someone is having fun.
Its a little more uncomfortable for those of us (me) who have been accused of 'practically raping' our wives or even the ones who just realize thats what they ended up doing.

GrowStrong wrote on 26 May 2017 15:31:

II have really admitted to it.

I will share my personal experience here, not for any philosophical or honesty purpose, but simply because I have no one else's experiences to relate. 
I'll start my day by masturbating before I get out of bed. If I'm lucky, I'll still make it to shacharis on time, get to work, perhaps get some things done before I need to take a break. Maybe I'll go to the bathroom at work and masturbate to some beautiful fantasies I have. I'll squeak through the day, masturbate again at home, do some work, maybe learn a little, daven maariv, take a shower. I make sure not to masturbate in the shower, because it has already been several hours since my last release, and by this point, I'm gearing up to have the sex I so badly deserve (after all, I've been so good for the last 4 hours). I climb into bed and one of the following inevitably happens:
Wife is already sleeping
Wife is not feeling well/too tired for sex
Child(ren) start screaming as soon as I get into bed
My response may vary, but my natural, knee-jerk response would be to start gently waking up my wife, do "piyus," etc. Whatever it would take for me to get what I want/need. Would I even dream of actually raping her, forcing myself on her over her protests? Chas Veshalom.
But really, if she says she's not interested, or she implies that she's not interested and I persist and persist, is that really "piyus?" Or is it a depraved need to fulfill MY desires?
Although I believe myself to be someone AA calls "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves," can I really look myself in the mirror and say that I'm insisting on sex for the betterment of the relationship? Do I really think that when all is said and done, my wife is going to sleeping thinking "I'm so glad I agreed to have relations with him in the end. It really made me feel better."? Or is she thinking "Now that I got that sex addict perv off me, and relatively quickly, I can finally get some sleep."?
I might be a sexaholic, perpetual luster and a pathological liar.
But I ain't stupid. I know when she really doesn't want it.

Thanks for continuing this conversation, would love to hear other points of view.

Incredible sharing of information on this thread. I think everyone agrees that we are all different, our spouses are all different , and our situations are all different.An action thatfor one person is piyus and focused on the wife is for another person manipulation focused on themselves (see post from BigMoish). It really is all in the mind.    Then there are people somewhere in the middle (which i think WorkingGuy was referring to). They still have strong selfish urges, and still sometimes use their wife as a masturbating tool (which is completely unacceptable, but except in extreme cases should not be called rape).. However at other times they truly focus on pleasing their wives on their wives' terms, at times good for their wives, and in a manner their wives appreciate. People in this category will have stress in the bedroom, forever second guessing themselves - am i here for her? am i here for me? Does she really want it or is she doing me a favor? Maybe those in this category should have someone to speak with to help remove personal negius and come up with the proper mehalech. 

Hashem Help Me wrote on 26 May 2017 17:01:

Why do we keep talking about mysterious, anonymous "they" and "people?" I can also make my own conjectures about different people and different categories and decide that I am different from everyone else, but ultimately, I, like everyone else here, don't know what the next anonymous basement pajama blogger is really truly thinking, which is why I prefaced my thought with the fact that although I would LOVE to tell everyone else what THEY are really thinking, I can't! And neither can anyone else. If anyone would like to share what THEY specifically feel when they pressure their wife for sex, it would be much appreciated.

Bigmoish wrote on 26 May 2017 17:54:

I pressured my wife for years.

I cajoled her.

I insisted.

I persisted.

I begged.

I masturbated.

She gave in.

She smiled (sometimes).

She reluctantly agreed.

Beh, shmeh, etc.

Until recovery time, after several years, years I said, when she finally felt somewhat at ease, she said, "I used to recoil upon your touch." "Recoil," dammit! That means she wasn't feelin' cajoled.

I'm not sayin' anyone else is like this.

I would say that first of all, in my personal situation I think that there is only one it's ever that I masturbated on the same day as a day that I had relations with my wife. I also would say, as does my wife, that she doesn't feel that I ever used her as a sperm bank.

what she would say bothers her is that when we would talk about our intimate life not in the bedroom, I would too often expressed displeasure in either the frequency or the fact that she doesn't initiate. And she made it clear that she wants me to initiate but yeah I would have no problem turning me down often. Which was too hard for me because I don't like rejection. So for me, it's been a little different. And I'm more of the split personality addict- The one who's got not enough of the sense of self to be really selfish; I don't know if I've ever done anything in the bedroom that made my wife uncomfortable. But on my own, I'm completely selfish.

 So to each their own, and I certainly agree with corduroy in this case. I'm typing on voice typing it, and I'm going to leave his name as corduroy.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't throw that around so much because I think people have definitely gotten carried away, too many people are walking around with too much guilt as a result, and as I think grow strong point it out, some of the wives are retroactively feeling like sperm banks because they didn't feel used till now but now their husbands are coming with so much shame and guilt that they are making their wives feel bad. Which, by the way, is also very selfish and self-centered.

but to reiterate, I do agree about this specific case

Interesting stuff. WorkingGuy: You might want to check your spelling. You referred to Hagaon Harav Cords as Kourtni. I thought that was the newest Kardashian. And then you called him corduroy! The gall. 

Just kidding, have a great Shabbos everyone.

Bigmoish wrote on 26 May 2017 17:54:

Okay so I will share an experience which describes that "middle group" . Caution - potentially triggering.  So Friday night my wife let me know she was very tired but would appreciate falling asleep together. So we were undressed under one blanket and she requested I massage her. These are opportunities I cherish. Be there for her, remove all sexual thoughts.... For the first ten minutes I did it completely for her. However after a while being that I am only human the urges began. Meanwhile she made it very clear that she was enjoying it very much and appreciated it. Eventually I asked her if she would like to go further (which is my way of asking if I should touch certain places that arouse her). She answered "No". Then she added "Is that ok?" I of course lied and said "Sure, no problem". It was a lie because by that time I really wanted to have sex, I was hard as a rock..... There were actually tears in my eyes when I answered "OK". A minute later she asked me "Is this our last chance?" (being that we are nearing the end of her cycle). I knew I could have easily said yes even though there is really another day or two, but I said "No".  I then purposely asked her, in order to discipline myself,  if it would make a difference if it was the last chance and she said "Sure, then I would want to go further."  Two minutes later she said, "please stay, but I am going to turn over now..." And that's how the story ended. My body calmed down and I BH stayed clean. So as I wrote in the previous post, there are people who really want to be there focused on their wives but at times have their own needs. In my case, had I feared that I would be mz"l, or that I would not be able to handle the "rejection", I would have asked my wife to continue. I feel I am able to do so because of the following. When I shared my challenges with my wife she agreed to support me in my efforts to break free but after a period of self imposed celibacy, she basically made me promise her that I should not be second guessing my actions while in bed and if I need/want to have sex I should just say so and do so. In summary, I think Friday night showed I do not manipulate or "rape" my wife, and am genuinely interested in pleasing her. At the same time I am a normal healthy male and am aware of my needs. Sometimes those needs may blind me into becoming selfish. BH Friday night that did not happen. BigMoish, did this clarify things?

Very thought provoking conversation.
Moish I have two questions for you.
First, the Torah has two terms for non-consensual sex - אונס and מפתה. Which one do you see as a better definition of your actions?
Second, we have heard very wrenching accounts from you of a time when you gave in to your lust and now from HHM of an episode where he did not. Have you not both had both types of experiences?
Does frequency determine which episode defines you?
I'm not arguing, just asking.