Hi Bego,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts in a very respectful way of the other approach that someone else mentioned. You have brought up many good reasons why one should not be involved in shmutz.
With respect, I want to make one הערה that I think you would agree with. We must not forget that even if there was not a single [perceivable] downside in this world to not guarding our eyes or being mz"l, we still would need to keep these halachos with love and precision because that is the halacha and thus our mission as Jews. Thus, when push comes to shove, that the halacha demands it of us is really the reason why we do not do these things, not anything else. Everything that you mention is a great side benefit of keeping these halachos. I thought it was important to write this on the forum.
Wishing you much bracha.

Hi Bego,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts in a very respectful way of the other approach that someone else mentioned. You have brought up many good reasons why one should not be involved in shmutz.
With respect, I want to make one הערה that I think you would agree with. We must not forget that even if there was not a single [perceivable] downside in this world to not guarding our eyes or being mz"l, we still would need to keep these halachos with love and precision because that is the halacha and thus our mission as Jews. Thus, when push comes to shove, that the halacha demands it of us is really the reason why we do not do these things, not anything else. Everything that you mention is a great side benefit of keeping these halachos. I thought it was important to write this on the forum.
Wishing you much bracha.

According to many professionals, including Rabbi AJ Twerski Z"L, real addiction is an "illness" and needs to be treated as such.  Someone who fell a few times out of curiosity can be washed off and get out of it. But once a person has sunk his mind into this stuff for years, and he has trained himself to use lust as an escape mechanism from life whenever feeling R.I.D (Restlessness, Irritability, Discontent) and he has trained his mind to be triggered by everything he sees, this person develops an "allergy" to lust. What that simply means is, that for the rest of his life, he knows that he can not take even the first sip of lust, because if he does, he can easily lose control. His acting out all these years burned neuron pathways into his brain by "conditioning" himself to be aroused by everything he saw.

Knowing that one has this condition doesn't absolve him of anything. He still needs to know what the torah demands from us and keep all the halachos. 

What this person needs to realize is that he is not someone "bad" who needs to become "good", but rather he is simply "ill" and needs to get "better". When attacked by lust he simply says to himself, "well there I go again!", and he surrenders the lust to Hashem - knowing that he can't afford to even battle with it at all.

5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 17 Jan 2022 19:26:

Hi

Thanks for the reply and i appreciate that many people idneed think along the lines you have laid out. 

However, I don't really do public (internet) discussions of Machshovo or philosophy. My only exception is the practical outcomes of my thinking, hence my point above. That being the case, i will have to simply restate what I said above; there is another way to see it. 

Sorry if that's annoying, but it's better than starting a long discussion that I can't do justice to in this forum.  

bego wrote on 18 Jan 2022 14:09:

his mistake was stating unequivocally that torah and halachah is the only reason that we stop/should stop from these activities; sadly, he is wrong, and that is what i wrote above - it is not "the" reason, and maybe not even "a" reason. some wanna stay far away from that as being the deterrent. should torah/halachah be a/the reason to stop? in a perfect world, yes. is it? no.

Hi Bego,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts in a very respectful way of the other approach that someone else mentioned. You have brought up many good reasons why one should not be involved in shmutz.
With respect, I want to make one הערה that I think you would agree with. We must not forget that even if there was not a single [perceivable] downside in this world to not guarding our eyes or being mz"l, we still would need to keep these halachos with love and precision because that is the halacha and thus our mission as Jews. Thus, when push comes to shove, that the halacha demands it of us is really the reason why we do not do these things, not anything else. Everything that you mention is a great side benefit of keeping these halachos. I thought it was important to write this on the forum.
Wishing you much bracha.

Shalom. Based on some of the posts above in this thread, I do not think I was understood as I intended to be.
Hopefully the following clarifies what I was trying to say above:
I pray that every yid should be able to experience the great and tangible benefits to our lives that doing the mitzvos does indeed bring us in this world, to understand the mitzvos to his greatest ability, and to grow into an אדם השלם through their performance. I also pray, though, that even if someone does not recognize the blessings that observing the mitzvos brings him in this world, for whatever reason, that Hashem should give him, too, the strength and guidance to observe the mitzvos properly.

B'vracha.

you see trouble, many of us at gye after falling ,have this TERRIBLE feeling afterwards of OMG !what have i done ?! and they maybe even start to cry IN THE BATHROOM!! over what they have done , that realiazation that after the fall comes regret is a very strong impetus to push one to stop this roller coaster of lust,regret, lust ,regret .lust ,self loathe,lust ,self loathe.
but if someone falls and afterwards cleans up and walks away whistleing happily to himself , im not sure what will inspire him to stop.im sure  there are things ,but as of now, nothing really comes to mind.
im not saying that trouble is that happy whistler, im just saying.

Shmuel wrote on 19 Jan 2022 00:25:

a non jewish  teen went to bed and had a wild wet dream  when he woke in the morning he went to the bathroom and then headed back to bed, his mom said where are you going, answered the boy excitedly, "IM GOING BACK TO SLEEP!!" 
without the equation of G-d  after a lust there should be no self loathe , or regret ,why should he , hes just a monkey, and the doctors say its healthy...

Shmuel wrote on 19 Jan 2022 02:07:

i assume you have a problem with that...

Trouble wrote on 18 Jan 2022 20:35:

why should someone want to recover?well if hes a goy, i dont really have an answer . but for a yid who believes that G-d created him for a purpose ,( just like everything else was created for a purpose by a Wise G-d who has wisdom without limit,and wont just do things without a purpose,since to do something without purpose is not a very wise thing to do,) a yid will think to himself was i Created to fill my animalistic taavos and live like an animal just giving into the procreation urge whenever i get the opportunity?the time has come to be a Adom someone who is capable to reign in his animalistic urges.
you see trouble, many of us at gye after falling ,have this TERRIBLE feeling afterwards of OMG !what have i done ?! and they maybe even start to cry IN THE BATHROOM!! over what they have done , that realiazation that after the fall comes regret is a very strong impetus to push one to stop this roller coaster of lust,regret, lust ,regret .lust ,self loathe,lust ,self loathe.
but if someone falls and afterwards cleans up and walks away whistleing happily to himself , im not sure what will inspire him to stop.im sure  there are things ,but as of now, nothing really comes to mind.
im not saying that trouble is that happy whistler, im just saying.

bego wrote on 19 Jan 2022 12:27:

they are moral without G-d in the picture?i dont believe in such things unless they are missing reproductive organs