GrowStrong wrote on 30 Mar 2017 03:52:

What's guilt got to do with it, got to do with it, got to do with it?

What's guilt, but a second hand emotion?

tzomah wrote on 30 Mar 2017 12:39:

So I think we're saying the same thing then, which is that the guilt is irrational and merely the work of the yetzer to get us to feel down on ourselves and then continue acting out. I find it helpful to realize this, as it's very easy to think the guilt is actually the yetzer tov,  motivating us to be a better person!

GrowStrong wrote on 30 Mar 2017 03:52:

I agree with everything you're saying but where in the world did you learn that self love is selfish? By self love, are you referring to acting out? If you are, then I wouldn't call that self love anymore than I would call shooting heroine into my veins self love or anything else that feels good but will ultimately kill me. Self love is when I take care of myself like a parent does with a child. Self love is a very good thing.

our whole society has been teaching that self love is a bad thing 

Not sure which society you're talking about, but thinking that self love is a bad thing is a sickness which we as Yidden shouldn't try and emulate.  Someone who knows his true worth will be unable to not love himself, and as Yidden, our neshamas are so beautiful and precious, how can we not love and cherish the beautiful gift which our Loving Father has instilled in us? This is the ideal of course, and I'm not fully at this realization either, but I would like to think that I know what I'm striving towards.  Also, one who values himself and appreciates his self worth will run away from self destructive behavior, including acting out (read almost any Twersky book for more info on how this works).  

I really hope none of us beautiful Yidden buy into the "beating myself up is a good thing" mentality. Unfortunately it runs rampant in recovery groups and has nothing to do with recovery.  I suspect it's mamash some sort of klippa and it really has no place in the soul of Yid, even though it may have invaded some of our psyches like many of the other perverted concepts of the "avodas kochavim". So let's rejoice in the beauty of our neshamas and in Hashem's love for us and not be fooled that there's anything righteous or holy about self loathing.  

I bless us all that this Pesach Hashem should free us from the ayin rah that so many of us have towards ourselves, and that we should be able to view ourselves the way that Hashem views us.  This will ultimately lead us into a "love affair" with ourselves, our fellow Yidden, and Hashem our loving father.  

self love = good
self will / selfishness / self centerdness = not good (if self will works for you then good luck and i will concede good for you)

Know yourself.
Don'tI fool yourself.

cordnoy wrote on 09 Apr 2017 11:57:

Yes tzaddik, and when you know the value of your neshama and how precious it is, you will see how viewing yourself as anything less than Hashem's most precious child was the REAL fooling of yourself all along. I love you guys and hope that we can merit to view ourselves the way Hashem views us. And G-d willing, this Pesach we should merit to be redeemed from the fallacy of "fooling ourself" that we are anything less than great, and be able to view ourselves as the very reason why Hashem created the world (kol haolam barah bishvili).

Hashem views us as we are.

He loves us no matter what.

We are not great unless we choose to be.

but its our greatness that makes us choose 

Not sure exactly what you mean "views us as we are" but we daven every day that Hashem shouldn't view us as we are. Instead, we ask him to overlook our failings and flaws and instead focus on the positive. This is called rachamim. The opposite is din. When I look at my children, my love for them allows me to ignore their failings and instead focus on their strengths. This is the essence of love, which allows us to focus on the good instead of trying to see people "for who they are" (which usually just means finding an excuse to focus on the negative and then rationalizing it by saying we're just being honest). Our attitude regarding how we think Hashem views us usually ties into how we view ourselves as others. If we can't focus on the good in others and forgive them for their failings, we tend to think that Hashem is the same way (which is a projection of how we view ourselves).  And in a way it's true, since Hashem judges us the way we judge others (see sefer dan lezchus) The more rachamim we have towards others, the more rachamim Hashem has towards us, and we will feel it too. Hatzlacha!

workingmyprogram wrote on 26 Apr 2017 14:36:

I see this difference of opinion alot in the threads, where someone will say your a great yid and hashem loves you and don't think that your essence if a mirror of your actions and your True self is your neshama,and then you'll have someone say that your not great couse you cose not to be don't fool yourself etc.... In my opinion they are both VERY true and just like everything balance is key, there are definitely people on these threads that have forgotten that they are Jews!!! They have forgotten that a Jew has nothing to do with the reality of the goyish world even if he is sick like a dog with cancer suffered two strokes and a massive heart attack, but at the same time a Jew can use all this talk as a crutch to not really be truthful with himself!! I think that this is what comes through in the threads and people get confused!!



Am I talking sense??

workingmyprogram wrote on 26 Apr 2017 14:36:

Sorry for not respondin' earlier. I didn't realize you were addressin' my comment.

II agree with the crux of your post, but there is a slight difference in semantics, which may have to do with your parenthesis and honesty. God does view us as we are. We might ask Him to overlook certain things when He is judgin' us, or how He treats us, but His view of us is the way we are.

Regardin' our children, it is similar. Those parents, teachers, mentors, who only view the good in people, imho, will not be so successful in their raisin' and upbringin', for yes, they are not bein' honest. I am not advocatin' that they should be punished, ridiculed, disciplined, etc. But the entire picture should be viewed before decisions are reached.

Anyway, keep up your good work.

B'hatzlachah to all.

I wouldn't leave you in times of trouble
We never could have come this far
I took the good times; I'll take the bad times
I'll take you just the way you are