stillgoing wrote on 06 May 2016 07:08:

Sounds like were getting caught up in semantics. Treating her as an object is not one of the ג' חמורות in and of itself. (I mean, הויכע מדרגות are nice, but that's not our issue here*. As far as i understand, objectifying can be the cause of much lusting, and humanizing is a tool to stop it.) So what exactly are we arguing about here למעשה?
(*Sorry if I'm the המון עם mixing into the שלימי הדעת)

markz wrote on 06 May 2016 01:02:

I think this is a great conversation, and my biggest success is from realizing that I'm not an addict in my book and how much the shame and the label contributed to my problems. Markz, if I remember correctly you also decided that you weren't an addict. So here are some points.

1) What difference does it make? We want to succeed, so spin it to yourself in the best way that will make you succeed. If being an addict helps you, go for it. If not, don't be.

2) It is definitely normal to desire women. R Wolbe wrote that it is almost impossible for single boys not to struggle with masturbation. The question is where it goes from there. If you have bad coping and regulation skills, it will go from the "normal" amount to out of control.If you're exposed to pornography, which studies show causes the same parts of the brain to light up as cocaine, then it will probably go way past normal.Even a person who was married with a healthy, normal sex drive would probably go overboard of his wife was always ready and willing.So I think you have to differentiate between the beginning of the desire and struggle, and where it's at now.My therapist pointed out that people who have healthier emotional selves don't necessarily struggle the same way because they want to spend more time in the real world than escaping, and they may have healthy enough relationships to reach out for help right away.The 12 steps also subscribes to the idea that it is the out of controlness of our lives that pushes us to act out.  So I'd agree that the desire and struggle is normal, but available pornography and a hyper sexual society, and our own emotional problems can easily take that way out of control. 

WG, this is what I would have written had I known how to. Thank you.

markz wrote on 06 May 2016 01:02:

The quote thing isn't working, Here's what matkz said:
"From my unprofessional understanding addiction is when the outlet is out of control
Perhaps you are not addicted (No unprofessional guy here can tell you).
However "if you can't have it, your mind is going to try to find the next "best" thing".
Is that ok for you? Is that 'not a problem' similar to the first point I raised in my last post here?"

 It's definitely a problem, but it's not necessarily a problem with my brain. It's a problem because the Torah says that I have to control myself, just like I have to control myself from speaking lashon hara.  


I gotta agree with ina on this one. Over the last two weeks, I've seen things and have had thoughts that gave me pleasure, and I began to get angry and frustrated that I just can't control myself. And then I remind myself, this is totally normal. And magically, I calm down and go vyter feeling positive and encouraged to keep improving. It's working. I haven't fallen once since I joined GYE. If instead I keep telling myself that I have an addiction, it feels like an insurmountable defect and I'd just get depressed. Obviously if someone really truly has an addiction, he's got to face it and learn to manage it, whatever it takes. But if I can have this mindset, that I'm a normal male doing my best to follow the dvar Hashem, and it works to keep me clean, I would think it to be obvious that this is the correct approach.
 

Birshusi,
Just because it's productive to maintain a positive mindset doesn't make it true.
That being said, it seems to me you view the state of addiction as binary, i.e. either you are or you're not. It seems to me (this has been debated often here) based on my experiences that there is a range of how healthy/unhealthy my behavior patterns can be and I fluctuate along various stages of this range, with hopefully an overall trend upwards.
So, I agree with you to focus not on your medical condition called addiction if that is counter productive, but maybe at the same time be cautiously aware that even normal people can end up "addicted".

eslaasos wrote on 06 May 2016 04:11:

I know I have a problem with lust. I do engage it behaviors that can be destructive, as was discussed just a few pages ago.

I have a rebbi who I'm close to, and I'm planning on speaking to him about this soon, especially because the zman starts on Sunday and I need an eitzah how to remain connected to GYE.

eslaasos wrote on 06 May 2016 15:34:

I think I'm coming across a little bit too stubborn. I'm keeping an open mind, exploring options and considering everything. I started off thinking there was a good chance I was an addict, and now I'm not so sure. I do have the opinion of my mother, who's credentials are as impressive as it gets (IMHO ), that I shouldn't jump to diagnose myself until I see if marriage helps or not.

 

abie wrote on 06 May 2016 05:16:

I'd be very surprised if someone figures out why that's my name.

stillgoing wrote on 06 May 2016 07:08:

Anytime I get triggered by a random woman on the street, I am using her only for my enjoyment. I'm not thinkin' nothin' about her intelligence and humanity.

At the same time, I know that many men are unhappy in their marriages because their wives don't give them what they need (sources). The world tries to work with the couple to make that happen. I don't think the men just get labeled as sex addicts.

We all have biological needs, and this is one of them. Of course we want to be giving and considerate of others, but there has to be some acceptance of the natural sex drive, no?

I have way too much to say. Al rishon, rishon.

stillgoing wrote on 06 May 2016 07:08:


I agree with almost everything you wrote there. I was just saying that it isn't objectifying women. I think abie is right, this disagreement isn't important. We all agree that lusting and objectifying women is wrong. We have a few minor disagreements as to when objectifying occurs.
stillgoing wrote on 06 May 2016 07:28:


That's not normal? Last I checked the statistics, the percentage of men who had looked at porn in the last week was 70%

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Here's why I feel that labeling yourself as an addict if you're not is a bad idea. 

1) It can cause yiush like birshusi said. Don't make it harder than it is.

2)  It can cause you to stop taking responsibility for yourself. I've seen this countless times.

3) It will then take up a lot more time and effort to help yourself. If you're an addict you need a lot of help and likely for the rest of your life. If you're not then you need less and you can leave it behind.

4) It can distort your priorities. I can even count the amount of times I've seen someone post or say something like "right now I need to get sober, I don't care about God". That may be ok for an addict, it's probably not for a normal person.

This isn't an exhaustive list. I think there are a lot more reasons.

Not having success in the past does not make one an addict. I had absolutely zero success before finding gye. I always fell by the time sukkos came around many times on motzei yom kippur. I didn't have any tools before I came here.

I really think the quote I used of rasha shoteh v'gas ruach applies to unprofessionals encouraging people to "realize" that they're addicts. You're hurting them, you're an idiot for thinking you know, and you're a baal gayvah. It's important to realize that posting here, and being an addict yourself doesn't make anyone an expert and certainly doesn't make anyone qualified to diagnose anyone. There's a reason you need extensive schooling and experience to legally do that.

Sorry if  I offended anyone, we need to realize our limitations or we can ruin someone's life.
You may just be the reason he deals with lust for the rest of his life instead of leaving it behind.

 

inastruggle wrote on 06 May 2016 16:37:

A lot of what you said is true, but there may be a distinction between what's normal for the secular world, and what's normal for someone brought up in a religious environment. Of course, the sex drive is normal for everyone, but when your entire life is dedicated to a certain goal, then having a powerful natural urge that is counter to that goal creates conflict.

I'm just trying to stick up for SG, but I should really let him speak for himself. I believe what I wrote is true but it may not be relevant to your conversation.
For me, this conversation is getting pointless, so I'm logging out. Have fun.
 

Usual does not equal normal, and normal does not equal proper.

Edit: I started writing this before the two guys on top of me responded. I think both their points are great.

Birshusi wrote on 06 May 2016 15:58:


I don't think that's called objectifying her. This is either a semantic point or a philosophical one, I don't know if there's a point in debating it further.
Birshusi wrote on 06 May 2016 15:58:


NO.

This is extremely important. I got immense benfit out of realizing it. This is NOT a biological need. It's a biological want. We don't need sex to live, we need water, food, and shelter.

The outside society turned this into a need. I believe that this is exactly why the torah makes us control ourselves. We are humans not animals. We can control ourselves even if the want is extreme.

Many men are unhappy in their relationships because they'rewives aren't giving them as much sex as they want. That's because they want it more frequently than women. Too bad. It's not their wives fault that they want it so often and it's not their fault either. It's their fault for letting that urge control their actions.

If you want something and your wife doesn't then communicate. If you come into marriage for your own gratification then you missed the boat. I don't need to be married to know that.

Acceptance of the sexual desire means not to look at yourself like a sick menuval for wanting it. It doesn't mean you should feel entitled to anything.


Saying the word menuval reminds me of a guy who was here before my times named battleworn. I read his story a long time ago but it stuck with me. If I remember right, his wife hated sex with a passion. He learned how to deal with it.

Edit: I realized how bad the last paragraph sounds. The word reminded me of him because he called the yetzer hara that.

Gevura Shebyesod wrote on 06 May 2016 16:53:

Couldnt have said it better myself.

inastruggle wrote on 06 May 2016 16:57:

A golden post! I would just add though, that it aint always that easy