Harvey from SA says that people should really consider pornography as their sobriety date. He has a shmuess about why that is, in terms of even SA sobriety. Nowhere does it say that SA sobriety is masturbation till ejaculation, it says "sex with one's self."

Where is that Shlomo? I would like to read that. And I would agree that this concept of masturbation only breaking sobriety if you ejac is not accurate. I think a lot of people have this idea because they feel guilty only when they ejaculate due to the idea of zera levatala. 

I have found that many people don't count dry masturbation and watching porn as losing sobriety because they don't believe that it's a gmar. I don't know many people in SA who are thinking about the aveirah of mz"l...

OTR wrote on 08 May 2016 02:37:

I don't know how watching p can not be a violation of sobriety. I just cannot understand it. If thats what it says who am I to argue, but for me the actual act of watching porn is an act of extreme objectification of women, a lack of dignity for myself, a betrayal of my wife and a guaranteed progression to something worse ... 
I would usually say please explain. Now, I am not sure I even want to know how it cannot be a violation. It would ruin me. So, respectfully, please dont explain.
 

I don't think it's that crazy. I think it's pretty simple why some consider it a violation of sobriety... But your wish is my command.

Rigth. I was not even going to reply. But the point is that if it's triggering to you, I guess I just won't mention it right now. Not that I condone porn. I try to stay away from it as hard as I can because I've never been able to use it without acting out . 

I think that if the SA sobriety is "no sex with self", it's pretty easy to fit porn into that realm. Just because I'm not masturbating doesn't mean I'm not having sex with self.

169 days Clean

Actually everything about us... or me at least in regards to sex is crazy. I am not normal in that regard at all. Though I don't agree in principal with what you are saying it probably won't help my sobriety, your sobriety or anyone's sobriety for that matter to continue. So let's talk about the yankees and the dodgers and the mets... 

Or about the fact that yesterday I realized an important thing. Although I am not so into counting the 'streak' I DO feel very strongly that I should have goals reagarding cumulative days. Holding now with 169 clean days. I am happy to say I feel really good about those days. About 90 of those days were from a previous era of sobriety. Which  means that close to 90 of them are from this time. My goal is to hit 180 cumulative clean days (as soon as possible which would mean without any interruptions....) and make it an even split. ~90 from era 1 and 90 era 2. Then I am looking forward toward a 200 cumulative sobriety day anny. THAt would be 200 days of living. Looking forward to that... 

Cumulative Clean Days: 172

I just feel good. I am working hard, and very busy. I was up late last night and although I had a few stray thoughts, for the most part I really was not fiending for my drug. 

Right now my wife is out as well. This is a time when I would act out terribly on chat forums as well as other ways of connecting with people through porn and modern technology. (I dont want to go into details on that here if I have not already). In any case, I feel great that although she is out, I did my job tonight with my kids, I made my chavrusa, met my other obligations as well. 
This is who I want to really be. As opposed to locking my door for hours on end, while my kids fend for themselves, and I escape into my drug.

OTR wrote on 12 May 2016 04:11:

Amazing. You make "normal life" sound so so good. Thanks for the inspiration!!

I'm quite far from normal to be frank. Actually for many of the things that I have done I am weird even by secular standards. (like really weird and loserish) 

But I try to catch the times when I get a sense of normalcy on paper and to be able to look at it in later times.

As far as my step 10 this morning, I was able to react correctly and lovingly toward a person in my house that did something (or the type of thing) that regularly sets me off. PArt of this I think is bec I spent some time reevaluating what I know my obligations are and my responsibility to make ammends to this person. Although I do  A LOT for them, it is often not with a smile, but with at least an internal, if not external grimace. BH, I reacted correctly this morning. 

Things with my wife and being permitted/ being able to be together have been a little rough lately and I feel internally the thoughts telling me I am 'jkustified' in acting out. I 'deserve it' because of this 'strain' on being able to 'get what I need'. Oh boy... didn't realize I was gonna write that- but that's what is really going on in my head. I am coming to realize that the benefit of talking with others is sometimes just to be able to really realize what we are saying to ourselves. Getting in touch with that for me is very powerful in terms of being able to change my behavior.  
 

OTR wrote on 12 May 2016 15:27:

Hey OTR! I love your thread, and I'm enjoying your posts about healthy living!  Just had to comment about this post, cause it hits a soft spot for me.  I'm currently struggling with feelings of being pathetic, loserish (as you put it), and hardly even a person because of the way I pursue my particular lust.  I'm sure it's different than your way, but... I have to say that I think it's a mistake to think about these things as being "weird by secular standards".   It seems to me that out of control lusting is just plain abnormal for many of us here - religious or secular has nothing to do with it.  Abnormal meaning - not the way normal healthy people act, whether they bow to G-d or to some getchka. If your an AA/SA guy and don't believe me on the definition, feel free to look it up in a dictionary... just kidding I used to think that secular people would just indulge these things and be fine with it.. but now I disagree.  My drug would be weird to you and your drug would be weird to me (likely), but is a person like that weird? Or just in bad health? 

KOP

Thank you so much for your comments T613. WHat should I say I am comforted to know that  I am not the only one who feels like a loser sometimes...  

Agreed it is just plain unhealthy and abnormal behavior. I totally get what you are saying regarding having different 'drugs' and how you may look at mine and me at yours.... The point is that what addicts have in common is that we lose our identity and humanity to this drug. Whether it is lusting for X, Y or Z we at some point lose the control that makes us people and instead behave like zombies. I don't even think I am on the level of animal, because animals just seek their natural needs, whereas I am seeking a way to placate inner stresses with an act that was never intended to serve that purpose. I become worse than an animal- self degrading and .. well not a good me. 

It's good to sometimes remember though what a loser I feel like when I act out. It is not just guilt that I feel. I feel like a loser because people I associate with look at me like a loser. And at that point,,, well I am acting like a loser so I guess I get what I deserve. 

On a separate note: Today wound up being an unusual day. I had a great business conversation and some good things happening on that end. However, I became very emotional and distraught. Truthfully, I take some mild antidepressants. ANd I ran short for a few days, so maybe that is what I am feeling. I didn't want to write that. BUt it is kind of hard to write anything wthout putting that out there. 

In anycase, I was also feeling (I think) some of the pain that I have felt inside for a long time as I have been struggling in business. Now that some good things are happening I think the pain I have been feeling is surfacing. 

On the other hand, as a result of working the steps, I have been rally improving with a family member who has presented me a lot of challenges and frustration in the past. Tonight in particular we were talking and instead of berating them for not seeing things my way, I complimented their approach, as it truly was deserving of compliment. Although they did not see the solution that I did, their solution was definitely good from one perspective. After noting that I said, "but I think there is something even better that you can do and that is ....."

Responding this way is something I have always wanted to do. I was glad I was able to do it tonight and hope to act in that way more going forward. 
 

Dgyee!

I'll try again.

From the biggest freedoms from the shackles of isolation and secrets is the disclosure of our real feelings and fantasies.

As long as they remain hidden in the recesses of our brain and body, they will remain in control - even when they lie dormant for quite some time.

Cumulative Clean Days: 177 (really 287! )

I know personally and from hearing from others that writing is incredibly helpful- Whether it is a journal, worksheets that go along with the 12 steps or some other system or some other way of capturing our thoughts/feelings/experiences... Writing down has a lot of benefits.

On one of the calls we talked about it, and I realized then why it is so helpful to me. It is because people only write about things that are important to them. Business deals, Chiddushey Torah or anything else that is important enough for a person to want to remember somehow find their way to being written down. Otherwise they just melt away into the past. So I found that 'just' committing to writing some of these things down was a 'self signal' that put me in a more serious frame of mind. This is separate from teh actual benefit of being able to read over what I wrote and see myself more objectively. Just the fact of committing time to put something into words helps. 

Recently I opened an old journal file from years ago where I was writing about my journey. I discovered that I had recorded my previous streak as having been 200 days clean.

WOW I thought. I made it to THAT long! And indeed that makes me happy. More happy though is that my cumulative clean days are really in the area of about 287 since the system is only recording 91 of the clean days from my previous streak of sobriety.

This helps me realize that there IS more to my life than just a string of acting out episodes and that I am capable of achieving more. PArt of me though is saying, ok- you are doing alright. It's ok to take a break every now and then as long as you remain functional for the majority of the time, you can take a vacation every now and then. Oy- this is problematic. ....