Shlomo24 wrote:
If this was anybody but you skep, I would probably get upset. I'm glad your back.
I just want to make it clear that I have nothing against you, or cordnoy, or anyone else on here who works the 12 Step Program. (And I'm sorry, OTR, for having hijacked your thread.) I appreciate and truly value our friendships, and nothing I write regarding the program is an attack on you, or even on the program itself. There are just some things that really rub me the wrong way, and I gave in to the urge to speak up.
In terms of it [12 steps] being a form of CBT, well it preceded CBT by many years, the goals of Dr. Bob and Bill W. were not to create therapy. Dr. Carl Jung, the premiere psychologist of his time and one of the most well-known psychologists ever, said that only an act of God can keep the alcoholic sober.
It doesn't matter that the 12 Step Program was developed before Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, as we know it today, was. It doesn't change the fact that that is, in essence, what it is. There are Torah concepts that fit very nicely with the Cognitive-Behavioral approach, and there are many concepts in the 12 Step Program that can be found in Torah teachings.
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is very different than Psychoanalytical Therapy, which Dr. Carl Jung, a psychiatrist, founded. Psychoanalytical Therapy is more of the kind of therapy you refer to, in which one dwells on the past while the therapist analyzes the effect the patient's experiences had on their subconscious and then diagnoses the patient. Dr. Jung was also a very firm believer in religion and therapy going hand-in-hand. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy doesn't really focus on the past very much at all. Rather, CBT works with the assumption that thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are by-products of each other. Therefore, if one works on changing their faulty thoughts, their feelings will change, and when their feelings change, their behaviors will change.
When a person working the steps reminds himself that his behavior is destructive and makes his life unmanageable, that is CBT. When instead of impulsively acting out, he remembers that he has a Higher Power, and says the serenity prayer, and thereby puts his trust in said HP, that is CBT. When the urges are driving him crazy, and instead of giving in, he makes a resentment list of the people/things, and then lets go of that resentment to stay sober, that is CBT. When he surrenders his desires and the fight to his HP instead of trying to control them, that is CBT. The list goes on and on. When he is replacing his old attitude, and his old behaviors with new thoughts, and new behaviors, that is CBT.
Shlomo Hamelech wrote that there is nothing new under the sun, and that is reality. There may be different packages, but nothing is new.
Yes, one can get credit for committing to and working a good program, but in my experience the second that I think I am keeping myself sober is also the first second of my insanity. I can't speak for others, but people like me DO NOT get sober. Every time I have tried to keep myself sober I have failed. Every -- time.
I will agree that ego, and the feeling of being in control, will often lead to falling.
The purpose of the 4th step is to realize our character defects and begin to understand the scope of what addiction has done, (or whatever anonymous or anon group it is), in order so that we can truly be free and have the power of our "Higher Power" flow through us.
I have nothing at all against the 12 Step Program. Sometimes the terminology, and the culture, drives me up the wall, and I may say something about it, but that is all.
In this instance, a moshul of starting a lawnmower was given. The nimshal was that sometimes one must reevaluate, and see what he can do differently, while other times, he just needs to keep at it "until it catches".
It was then said that one should "stop pulling the cord," stop trying to be in control, and just let go and let G-d. Sobriety is a gift, period.
I believe that working the steps is work - it's not a magical solution. Put in the effort, trust in Hashem, and Hashem helps our efforts. There are people who go to real live meetings, they sincerely work the steps, and they still have setbacks. The setback is usually a sign that there was some sort of stress that resulted in a lapse in doing the work. Don't give up! The important thing is get back to doing what has worked in the past, and learn from the setback how to deal with that sort of situation in the future.