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OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is....
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TOPIC: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 40975 Views

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 29 Mar 2019 09:18 #340170

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Workingguy wrote on 29 Mar 2019 03:54:

....
So I’ll gladly say- that whatever helps you is what you should use (provided it doesn’t mean chatting with another woman)


Masturbating every morning and night helps me stay off porn. I even have better Shmiras Eineim.

On a more serious note, I remember learning that it is Torah that defines what is Derech Eretz and what is moral, not the other way around. The Germans were the most civilised country before WW2, but they still were able to kill millions of Jews R"L.

n.b. Proper quotes would have been nice here.
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Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 29 Mar 2019 09:50 #340171

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Wow very well said. I relate to you completely, I was doing the tapsihc method and I was clean for a while but then I just kept crashing down. I built up my yideshkeit and it helped but I’m not there yet, I need to get out side of myself and reach out to others. Even though your 40 and I’m 21 I see how our struggle is similar. I get a lot  of Chizuk seeing how marriage won’t solve this, recovery can only come from within us not on exterior circumstances.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 29 Mar 2019 14:49 #340180

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OTR wrote on 28 Mar 2019 15:00:

Workingguy wrote on 28 Mar 2019 03:57:
Cords, 

I don’t get it- basic Derech Eretz wouldn’t allow porn, correct? That’s what everyone here says. Then is there a “tzad” that Torah could? What is the Torah if not building on, and elevating, that basic Derech Eretz to make ממלכת כהנים and בנים למקום? 

If Derech Eretz doesn’t allow it, the Torah definitely wouldn’t. Because the Torah is that and more. (צניעות מחתול, פיוס  מתרנגולת).

Your question is specifically what I’m coming to address. Derech Eretz has to come before because it’s the bedrock-the operating system if you will- upon which we overlay the Mitzvos of the Torah to now take that Derech Eretz even further. We go from the basics and take the human qualities and we elevate them even more till the lucky ones can get to חסידות נקיות פרישות etc. 

But let no one think that the lessons they need in order to stop porn and are learning from Derech Eretz are there and not in the Torah. They are in the Torah too- not some sort of weird, lofty, spiritual message that’s out of reach. They are telling you what you’ll find in Derech Eretz and more. But if you haven’t done the Derech Eretz, you won’t be able to access it. 

I’m protesting that, for all the people who need to learn it from some place else than the Torah, they should never think the lack is on the Torah’s side. All the messages are in there. It may not motivate them, it may not be relevant right now, but they’re all there. 

Dont know if this clarified at all, but either way, this is philosophical, not practical. Practically, I’m all in favor of doing whatever works for you best ומקבל את האמת ממי שאמרו

Agree wiht teh first two paragraphs. The later half I would say like this- 

Not sure if I agree. Torah is instructions. The manual begins assuming you have all the peices in place and ready to assemble. One of those pieces is a complete starting level human being. The fact that the Torah endorses the concept of a complete human being deosn't mean it is meant to instruct a person how to be that. It (imho based and what I got from all the rabbis I ever spoke to) means that in order to assemble a spiritual ladder (Torah zeheirus zerizus.. or whatever system you work with of growth) you need that person to start. 

On a deeper level, if I wanted to see the derech eretz thing as part of the 'Torah' it needs to apply to all people. Not just the mamleches kohanim.  I am talking about a normalcy that (although rare in the world) applies to humanity not just yiddin. THAT I can hear IS rooted in the Torah. Because the Torah is the blueprint for creation, all of it and all people and creatures involved. So yeh on that level Torah can be the source of decency in my understanding. Whatever ways we as Jews are 'different' mamleches kohanim - goy kadosh... has no shaychus to my thinking on masturbation and porn other than that if I do those things I have transgressed. And that causes me pain. No amount of focusing on those specifically Jewish concepts helps me, or anyone I know who feels they are addict/obsessed or somehow drawn to these actions in a different more volatile way, stay sober/clean/away from doing it. But focusing on that 'human element' (not an esoteric  etheral removed spirituality... It's NOT spirituality!  It's humanity!) does help me. 

Who says Torah can't build a person into a normal/healthy human being? 
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Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 02 Apr 2019 00:37 #340249

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It's been my personal experience as well as that of many on the forum that utilizing Torah and mussar to address and addictive personality is akin to using a drill to bake. Wrong tool for the job. It's not a lack of yiras shomayim. It's an illness of the mind. Are you new here? This is pretty standard knowledge amongst addicts.
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.
Last Edit: 02 Apr 2019 00:39 by OTR.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 02 Apr 2019 01:53 #340253

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OTR wrote on 02 Apr 2019 00:37:
It's been my personal experience as well as that of many on the forum that utilizing Torah and mussar to address and addictive personality is akin to using a drill to bake. Wrong tool for the job. It's not a lack of yiras shomayim. It's an illness of the mind. Are you new here? This is pretty standard knowledge amongst addicts.

Pinterest, which I don't have (because I'm such a tzaddik), is filled with recipes for "tool cakes."
I'm all about that (substantial) bass, no trouble ....

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 02 Apr 2019 02:09 #340256

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OTR wrote on 02 Apr 2019 00:37:
It's been my personal experience as well as that of many on the forum that utilizing Torah and mussar to address and addictive personality is akin to using a drill to bake. Wrong tool for the job. It's not a lack of yiras shomayim. It's an illness of the mind. Are you new here? This is pretty standard knowledge amongst addicts.

For practical purposes, not for the sake of a philosophical argument- Markz used to, and maybe still does, have a long list of people who succeeded in being sober after a long time. Many who were told, who thought, or who said, that they were addicts.

I went through most if not all of them when I rejoined, and I saw a crazy thing. Many addicts learned they weren’t addicts or got downgraded, and the variety of ways that people became sober was almost as varied as the names of the people.

And yes, some used religion and Mussar. So while I think most of us here agree that Mussar won’t cure true addicts (whatever that means), there is so much variety of definition, and so much variety to who succeeds around here, that I wouldn’t dismiss any method outright.

AlexEliezer, I believe, cured himself through some method with the Arizal’s teachings and some other things. 

I, a former twelve stepper, succeeded for long periods of time by learning that Shmiras Einayim and staying away from triggers works. 

So so by all means, if someone is recommending something that you think is detrimental, stop them. 

But otherwise, I don’t know if you can assume as fact that it doesn’t work. 

And as for the disease model of addiction-it’s one model, and plenty a controversial model. See the Rat Park video, read Stanton Peele and Gabor Mate, and you’ll see that it’s not a given either. 
(And Dov will tell you that it doesn’t work for the addicts, but that way too many people think they are addicts, and that for those people it might indeed work. )
Last Edit: 02 Apr 2019 02:12 by Workingguy.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 02 Apr 2019 02:34 #340257

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WG this sounds alot like the convo we are having on the other thread. Derch Eretz separate from Torah or included in it?  I actually discussed this concept with my son who pointed out that  the umos ha'olam guarded tehmselves from arayos from the times of the mabul. This was not bec they were Torah observant. Although I guess one could say it is Torah (as in God's instruction/direction/infusing in the briyah that caused that to happen after the flood. 

What I came up with is that Torah/God created the world severely lacking in derech eretz and at points along the way brought it into the world. Once it was brought in through Torah it's never leaving the world again. (It may be contradicted, but the concept will always be there of what it is.) However, having derech eretz is possible and demanded of humanity even without Torah observance Is it therefore really included in the Torah? I guess in that respect you can say. The Torah requires a person to have derech eretz for/from themselves, even without Torah observance. That's just my opinion.

I don't want to say it is in the Torah as I don't think it needs to be learned from the Torah. I think it can be learned through the world alone. It's not just derech eretz. If you did 12 steps you undersand that  people are connecting to their concept of godliness without any connection to Torah. And it works for some of them quite well.  
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 04 Apr 2019 16:09 #340381

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I hate and appreciate the days my wife is assur. 
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 04 Apr 2019 18:02 #340386

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OTR wrote on 04 Apr 2019 16:09:
I hate and appreciate the days my wife is assur. 

I relate to the hate part, appreciate, not so much.
Aka -  Mischadeish075

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 04 Apr 2019 18:09 #340387

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Workingguy wrote on 02 Apr 2019 02:09:

OTR wrote on 02 Apr 2019 00:37:
It's been my personal experience as well as that of many on the forum that utilizing Torah and mussar to address and addictive personality is akin to using a drill to bake. Wrong tool for the job. It's not a lack of yiras shomayim. It's an illness of the mind. Are you new here? This is pretty standard knowledge amongst addicts.

For practical purposes, not for the sake of a philosophical argument- Markz used to, and maybe still does, have a long list of people who succeeded in being sober after a long time. Many who were told, who thought, or who said, that they were addicts.

I went through most if not all of them when I rejoined, and I saw a crazy thing. Many addicts learned they weren’t addicts or got downgraded, and the variety of ways that people became sober was almost as varied as the names of the people.

And yes, some used religion and Mussar. So while I think most of us here agree that Mussar won’t cure true addicts (whatever that means), there is so much variety of definition, and so much variety to who succeeds around here, that I wouldn’t dismiss any method outright.

AlexEliezer, I believe, cured himself through some method with the Arizal’s teachings and some other things. 

I, a former twelve stepper, succeeded for long periods of time by learning that Shmiras Einayim and staying away from triggers works. 

So so by all means, if someone is recommending something that you think is detrimental, stop them. 

But otherwise, I don’t know if you can assume as fact that it doesn’t work. 

And as for the disease model of addiction-it’s one model, and plenty a controversial model. See the Rat Park video, read Stanton Peele and Gabor Mate, and you’ll see that it’s not a given either. 
(And Dov will tell you that it doesn’t work for the addicts, but that way too many people think they are addicts, and that for those people it might indeed work. )

I don't want to spike the ball, but I'm sober now for some time in a long time, because someone told me not to look at myself as an addict. Sometimes the solution lies in the simple, at your feet, not in all the fancy terminology. 
Aka -  Mischadeish075

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 04 Apr 2019 19:05 #340389

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Go deep into the endzone and spike it as hard as you want. My philosophy is whatever works to make you feel your life is manageable. Go ahead and do it. 

On another note, apparently the intergalactic worlds are celebrating that they will now be able to tune into porn from their home planets..
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!

https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/04/amazon-joins-spacex-oneweb-and-facebook-in-the-race-to-create-space-based-internet-services/
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 04 Apr 2019 19:21 #340393

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That will be taking escapism to outer space
Aka -  Mischadeish075

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 14 Apr 2019 13:44 #340577

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It is quite evident that my service of Hashem is almost completely self centered. I say that bec I think I have had some times where I davened and wanted mashiach to come for the Jewish ppl. But my main goal is that I should work on myself and get Hashem's help to solve my personal problems. - My tefila is almost entirely focused on that (I can balst through an entire davening and wake up at the end of elokay netwzor when we start askng for our own things). It's not like I just ask for gashmiyus. Which is of course included. I ask for help improving my middos where they need to be and for issues related to chinuch of my kids that are all pretty much shalom bayis stuff. I ask for help in being honest with my wife in our relationship.. and to work on my emunah and bitachon. All these are things I want for my own peace of mind. If it doesn't fall into an emotional need for me, I just kinda see it as a heicha timtza to not getting God angry so that the other stuff will work out for me. - Not sure if I should be working more toward a leshma, or just keep focusing my personal needs into my relationship with Hashem

On another side note. I need to go to NY today. Of course the toughts of the nude bars etc.. have been in my mind for years. Today I am glad to to say.. they are not as loud. I want to stay honest with my wife more than I want that insanity in me atm. That makes me happy. Although . have sort of reached out to some women.. I think I just like being in the 'chase mode.' With the promise and 'possibility' there. But in reality i ma not going anywher with it. 
  • I've never been one for signatures.. but sometimes people change
  • I'm seeking the life that I find manageable which may not be the life you find manageable. But let's make a deal. I want you to find yours and you want me to find mine even if they are different.

Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 14 Apr 2019 14:08 #340578

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Nice post. Honestly refreshing.
I fool myself in thinking that I pray for the world and for the Shechina when I'm just as self centered in other areas.

In Chassidus it is mentioned, that this is the ultimate challenge of every person. Until a person is in the box, he needs to pray not to be brought to Gaavah, which is the epitome of self centeredness.

Davening for the success of our Wife and Kids is not being self centered, if our focus is their well-being, instead of our gain.
i.e. Davening that our kids should find a good shidduch so that they should happily establish a Bayis Nemon, is fine. Davening they should find a good shidduch so that I should nachas from them and I should feel good when people congratulate me, isn't so fine.

May you have much Hatzlocha in your trip and in your life in general.
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Re: OnTheRoad is BackonTrack is OTR is.... 14 Apr 2019 14:54 #340579

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OTR wrote on 14 Apr 2019 13:44:
It is quite evident that my service of Hashem is almost completely self centered. I say that bec I think I have had some times where I davened and wanted mashiach to come for the Jewish ppl. But my main goal is that I should work on myself and get Hashem's help to solve my personal problems. - My tefila is almost entirely focused on that (I can balst through an entire davening and wake up at the end of elokay netwzor when we start askng for our own things). It's not like I just ask for gashmiyus. Which is of course included. I ask for help improving my middos where they need to be and for issues related to chinuch of my kids that are all pretty much shalom bayis stuff. I ask for help in being honest with my wife in our relationship.. and to work on my emunah and bitachon. All these are things I want for my own peace of mind. If it doesn't fall into an emotional need for me, I just kinda see it as a heicha timtza to not getting God angry so that the other stuff will work out for me. - Not sure if I should be working more toward a leshma, or just keep focusing my personal needs into my relationship with Hashem

On another side note. I need to go to NY today. Of course the toughts of the nude bars etc.. have been in my mind for years. Today I am glad to to say.. they are not as loud. I want to stay honest with my wife more than I want that insanity in me atm. That makes me happy. Although . have sort of reached out to some women.. I think I just like being in the 'chase mode.' With the promise and 'possibility' there. But in reality i ma not going anywher with it. 

Well-written (except the spellin', of course). 

This site has a great mix of alI sides of the spectrum. Your honesty and realism is refreshin'.

I wake up by שמע קולנו.

I enjoy/enjoyed the chase as well, but I needed/need some type of closin' on the deal. (Is there a hakpadah on the tenses matchin' the order?)

Godspeed to you in all your self-seekin' pursuits.
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