Truth is regardin' yourself, I don't think we can know, for you haven't told us much, but for many of us, it is a sickness. Is it a sin? Yes; but that didn't stop us, and will probably not stop us. It also tends to get in the way of recovery - for many of us - that is. Is all sin a sickness? Yes - temporarily at least. Our addiction is almost regarded as permanent. We view it like that. We ask God for help in this, but more than we ask Him for other things. Usually, we put in a certain amount of effort into accomplishin' a task, and then God takes over; here, it is much less on our part. Once again, pick your way, and let us know; we are only talkin' from our experiences, and that's a heck of a lot of years between the all of us.

b'hatzlachah

I didn't say you had an illness. I said I have an illness. Whether you're an addict or not is something only you can know.

For me there is a big difference between a sin and this addiction. If I put even a tenth of the effort I put into controlling myself in this area into other areas, I would either succeed or be potur. I put a huge amount of effort I put into controlling myself from this sin and found I could not. It is impossible for me.

If I had a taivah to eat treif I would be able to stop myself eating treif with a fraction of the effort I put into this. If I was mechalel shabbos and wanted to do teshuvah I would have been successful with this amount of effort without years of relapsing.

This is different. No matter what I tried to do I was utterly incapable of stopping myself on my own power. Not through lack of wanting or through lack of effort or lack of willpower. I simply cannot fight the addiction.

Now I'm a trying to work a program that doesn't require me to fight the addiction at all. I just try to follow a few simple rules and principles and allow Hashem to do that for me, and I've had much more success ble"h. I'm not there yet but slowly slowly there has been some progress.

For me fighting the addiction would be like a diabetic trying to force his body to produce insulin through willpower. Or by doing the right mitzvah, or by learning more gemora. I have had to accept that I have this illness and accept a program that helps.

As for your second question, opening up is a good first step. Don't expect perfection overnight. It's taken years of programming yourself in a particular way to get to this point, it takes time to reverse it. Don't get impatient, take it slowly, one day at a time. Keep coming back, keep on posting, keep on reading. Hashem will lead you down the right path if you let Him.

Hashiva i will relate only to your last paragraph . The reason being is that philosophical issues that relate to Hashem's ways on ruling His world can take us off track from the more important issues here at stake.

Opening up is just the begining .As you rightly said you dont feel you can go on with your life . Because you do not have the ability yet to just stop doing the things you do not want to do. Since you do not and can not control this actions and this clearly denotes your addiction , you have to start a healing process . kind of detoxification. The test will be whether you can stop doing those things ; if you can then go on with your life, but if your addiction controls you . You can not sit still but rather do everything in your power that an addict can do . Please get acquainted with GYE hanbook. Read some of the forums . What other people did and what worked for them . In addition you should buy the Alcoholic Anonymous book and study it well , its a text book that will teach you how the healing works. There is plenty to do and plenty to work. Bethatzlacha !!

newaction wrote:


Mr NA, what you write is true and accurate - for me and for others.
I, however, didn't notice this in any of Hashiva's posts....perhaps I missed it. I did see that he wrote the word 'masturbate' once, but even there, he didn't say clearly that he did; just that he didn't intend to. I know he wrote that he can't go on with life, or somethin' like that, but I wasn't sure the meanin'.

b'hatzlachah to all....whatever it is that they are strugglin' with.

i see your point Cordnoy . Maybe i went a bit too fast this time . Nevertheless Hashiva has issues that bother him . He did mention his eyes . So maybe hashiva could share more , if possible of course. Behatazlacha to us all.

Watson wrote:


You had more integrity than I. You went to the bathroom to act out. I stayed in the BM and did it at times when my chavrusa was not with me. I was not officially planning to act out. I just allowed my thoughts to go there, so I could have looked at it as an accident. I was in middle of learning, my cvhavrusa went away and without realizing... Maybe thats why I still to this day don't quite realize to what extent I have a problem. Although these days when I act out with the internet it's not mamash with a sefer open.

What you say about becoming fundamentally different, that's exactly what the rambam says one must do in doing tshuva. He even talks about moving to a new place of residence and changing the name. I would like to explore what the fundamental differences should be. After all there are some things about myself I wish to keep. I do feel that the problem has infiltrated every aspect of my being even the seemingly good aspects. It's probably a type of selfishness that's present in every part of me. When you kosher a treif pot you immerse it in hot water and that extracts the treif parts from everywhere. I have already had tzaros and that didn't extract it all. Maybe torah lishma as the torah is also called fire aish das. But I'm not managing to do it. Maybe I need to plan to learn torah in a new kind of lishma. Maybe I should learn something which I won't repeat to anyone. I'm afraid of the internal conceit that might follow. I might begin to think 'wow I'm learning torah lishma' and then the refuah will be even harder to come by.

I'm rambling. So anybody with suggestions about fundamental change?

NA, he has started.

Hashiva, for answers, look above (the posts) and the home page. We suggest SA meetin's, the whitebook, a sponsor, the 12 steps, the phone conferences, a real live person to open up to; this creates fundamental change.

There are reasons why people "escape' to acting out. They may feel R.I.D. (Restless,Irritability and Discontent ) All sorts of bad feelings and resentments.
Acting out is a way that makes us "feel better and in control". Which is a big lie ;we feel bad and we are out of control.So there has to be a change in psyche and we have to learn how to deal with the issues that bother us in life without recurring to acting out ; and that could be the change that Watson referred to .

newaction wrote:


Yes I will share more because I really want to deal with this once and for all and you all say as does R Eleimelech that sharing it will help. When I am in the proximity of women, even when I plan not to look, I end up looking. I make all sorts of plans if I am going to be in a place of big nisoyon such as airport or driving through Manhattan and before I know it all plans are as though they were never made. I have a struggle about not looking when I go to the mikva. I have a struggle not looking at the cleaning lady even though she's fully dressed and she's ugly as sin. (Actually I shouldn't say ugly as sin because sometime pretty is more sin provoking) So now I'm looking for a better plan, one that will work.

there is progress already.

cordnoy wrote:


OH MY GOODNESS!

Meetin's?! The phone?! a real live person?!

OH MY GOODNESS!

i am afraid Cordnoy accelerated even more than me .

That aint happenin'

so fast

or is it?