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From tragedy to redemption
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TOPIC: From tragedy to redemption 47368 Views

Re: From tragedy to redemption 21 Jun 2015 17:48 #257298

  • Hashivalisesonyishecho
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Yes Serenity, it's this kind of advice that I'm looking for. For example, I just got a text message from her 'Happy Father's day'. That's maybe normal by goyim, but .....

Yes, please do give my regards to Dov.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 21 Jun 2015 18:37 #257301

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Before I was in any kind of recovery, I had to make clear boundaries regarding my employees. I knew that any issue would be a disaster. What I did was follow whatever the halacha was regarding speaking to female employees. Although this didn't help my fantasies perfectly, I think it helped set boundaries in their mind as well. So I guess that's the minimum to do.
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Re: From tragedy to redemption 21 Jun 2015 21:21 #257319

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serenity wrote:
Before I was in any kind of recovery, I had to make clear boundaries regarding my employees. I knew that any issue would be a disaster. What I did was follow whatever the halacha was regarding speaking to female employees. Although this didn't help my fantasies perfectly, I think it helped set boundaries in their mind as well. So I guess that's the minimum to do.


And after being in recovery?

Re: From tragedy to redemption 13 Jul 2015 01:19 #259313

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The fact that Goyim who try to better themselves can be better than some yidden is not a chiddush.

(ב"ק ל"ח)
ר"מ אומר: מנין שאפילו נכרי ועוסק בתורה שהוא ככהן גדול? תלמוד לומר: 'אשר יעשה אותם האדם וחי בהם', כהנים ולוים וישראלים לא נאמר אלא אדם, הא למדת שאפילו נכרי ועוסק בתורה הרי הוא ככהן גדול

And trying to stop engaging in practice which The torah forbids and thereby trying to fulfill that part of The Torah is certainly considered being oisek b'Torah.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Aug 2015 21:57 #261010

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Dov wrote:
Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
Thank you Dov for challenging me like that, but I totally disagree. It's erev Shabbos and Sunday I have a planned trip, but I plan to respond when I can. Then we will let the Oilam judge.

Gut Shabbos


I hope the oilem's judgement doesn't matter. Sof maiseh, only what you come to believe or know, is what matters. As they told us: "im ein ani mi, mi li?"

The judgement regarding all I wrote is not whether it is a sefer says it is the way it should be, whether sources in Chaza"l would agree about the subject in general terms that describe the Torah's approach to the topic. No, that's not what Hashem cares about, at all. The thing that matters is whether it is the truth about you or me right now.

I am not accusing you of anything, but usually what happens in these 'Torah-based' discussions is that people hide behind what should be, instead of allowing acceptance of what is with them. As though admitting that they are obsessed with her because they adore what she's got is an issur of some kind! Heh. It's really just shame and embarrassment, that's all. No bigggie. Accepting the truth is not a danger to avodas Hashem. It never is. It's actually the only way to start it.

And don't worry - accepting what is, is not the end of the matter. The Torah is the only end of the matter.

When Chaza"l say Derech Eretz kodma laTorah, they also mean self-honesty is precious and good - especially if the truth about me or you is "against" the Torah. Honesty about that truth actually converts it to Torah. It is the core of the real vidui that sforim tell us switches 'midas hadin to midas harachamim'. Sefl-honesty. Sefl-honesty that is against all the sforim and the Torah - the truth about how we feel and what our motives are right now. It opens us to real avodas Hashem. It is also how dinnim are 'nimtakim b'shorshom', in a respect. This honesty thing is very big stuff, indeed.

Like the Kotzker put it, on the words: "Emess m'eretz titzmoch". "Where exactly does the Emess grow? From the exact spot that the sheker is buried."

Hope you hear me. This is not a debate. It's not about the Torah or how things should be or what we should believe as yidden. It's all and only about you and me and where we are really holding right now. That's what He wants. Liba - my heart right now, sick and dirty as it may be. My real heart...not the deepest heart that is pure and good. That heart He always had and sees! And as perfect as it is, it does us no good.

He wants the truth right now about me and you. Derech Eretz. Only then, does Torah become of real value.


Shlomo has this post in his signature titled "real." Lately, and after a conversation I had with my therapist, I have been thinking about what is "real." This post seems to deal with self-honesty, which may be the same.

So, without getting involved in specifics of my case....at least here, my issue was that since recovery, my desires have become more specific and exclusive to a certain area and things that would excite me in the past have fallen off. The observation seems to be as follows: recovery leads to reality, so even in fantasy land, our desires become fine-tuned to what appears to be more real, rather than stuff that is more fantasy.

I wrote in short, but does that make sense?
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Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Aug 2015 23:10 #261013

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If I understand you correctly it makes sense. So for example, if in the past you had fantasy x that was a bit off the charts (I'm not sure whether examples that come to mind might be too titillating for this forum), now it's simply for a nice pretty frum Jewish girl who might even not be married.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 05 Aug 2015 23:27 #261016

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
I am in need of clarity. As I write, I will probably become clearer, and certainly by some clarity offered by the wonderful chaverim here.

I am presently in a mode of being able to be in the airport, a non frum hotel at this time of year, Manhattan etc. and not look where I shouldn't and not have a problem. But I have a non Jewish female worker whom I recently employed who poses an issue. She seems like a decent person, does good work, and I like her personality. If this was a man, all would be wonderful. I would give bonuses and praise his work as appropriate. If whenever I have such an issue I just create an Syag and and Issur, and I would say that I simply may not employ this woman, I'm afraid that the abundance of issurim would eventually not hold up and I would eventually break a syag and then break all rules chas vesholom. I want to be able to like this worker as a worker and even as a person without having bad thoughts. When she does a good job an something, I would like to be able to praise her without it having any 'other' meaning. Is this possible?


I can understand how it is difficultto give praise to a female employee for good work.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Aug 2015 00:01 #261031

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Even if it is possible, is having her employed a good idea or even mutar?

Remember the gemarah? If there are 2 ways to go. One way is a possible tayva and 1 is not. If the person takes the way with the possible tayva and passes the nisayon. Is he not still called a rasha for needlessly putting himself in tayva's way?
There must be good male workers. Here there is already a tayva for her.

Sounds like "head for the hills" and replace the woman employee.

It's a tough test though because she is a competent worker.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Aug 2015 01:24 #261035

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Cords, good bumpin'!

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Aug 2015 01:34 #261036

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yiraishamaim wrote:
Even if it is possible, is having her employed a good idea or even mutar?

Remember the gemarah? If there are 2 ways to go. One way is a possible tayva and 1 is not. If the person takes the way with the possible tayva and passes the nisayon. Is he not still called a rasha for needlessly putting himself in tayva's way?
There must be good male workers. Here there is already a tayva for her.

Sounds like "head for the hills" and replace the woman employee.

It's a tough test though because she is a competent worker.


You may be right, but this case isn't the same as what the gemara is talking about. The gemara is talking about a shuk shel zonos. Do you have any idea what that is like? My understanding is that is a place where every man who passes by will be approached and heavily and aggressively solicited by zonos trying to sell their wares of the oldest profession.

This case is a case of a problem which isn't a real problem except by this person's own creation. You can certainly avoid a shuk shel zonos, but you can't forever avoid the yetzer hora from within. It may be better not to get rid of this employee because by doing so it validates the idea that every woman is a zona, which is an idea which shouldn't be validated because it isn't true.

I don't know the answer but it seems clear to me that it isn't what the gemara is talking about.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Aug 2015 01:45 #261039

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Two points 1)I see I forgot the gemarah for I thought it was awhere women are doing the laundry at the river and he may peek at them while they are not so tznius

2) But if in this case this particular woman has something that you like( I assume not every woman does that to you) so the very fact she is there, is to a certain degree like that.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Aug 2015 02:51 #261045

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
Cords, good bumpin'!


Gee thanks!
I bump it for one reason, and all these guys do is go back to the female launderer sellin' her wares in the shuk when the male from the hills could get praised if he wasn't a goy!?

I'll take my discussion elsewhere.
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If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Aug 2015 04:51 #261052

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cordnoy wrote:
Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
Cords, good bumpin'!


Gee thanks!
I bump it for one reason, and all these guys do is go back to the female launderer sellin' her wares in the shuk when the male from the hills could get praised if he wasn't a goy!?

I'll take my discussion elsewhere.


You mean if he wasn't a goyta.












I guess I just don't chap.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Aug 2015 05:10 #261053

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Lately I've been searching for a particular thing. Lately when I've been reading someone's success story, I've been trying to figure out on practical aspect of the recovery. That is - what could be a way to be sure that the actions taken and the attitudes practiced for the sake of recovery won't fizzle out over time. While the responses given were full of many wonderful insights they didn't answer this one question which is very pressingly on my mind. The rambam says shinuy kol maasov letova, in order to achieve the perception that 'ahcer hu' What setting or mindset will act as the cocoon for my metamorphosis? For some people it might be the forums on GYE. For others that might not be a major chidush but rather just like another online forum of discussion. It depends how the individual sees and experiences it. Some people need to join a group which needs to become a life long tradition, so that even when they are no longer acting out they still continue in the group by being there for others, and thereby for themselves to stay sober and not to leave the tradition and fizzle out.

So recently I re-learned the words of The Rebbe Reb Meilach who says that a person should have someone with whom he discusses his every thought that is keneged Hatora, and I noticed that he says '...לספר בכל פעם' meaning that every time that there is an issue it warrants the discussion and the disclosure. I think therefore that this might be a permanent and constant setting because our avoda is never complete.

I was recently zoche to find someone through this forum, with whom I have begun to do this. I hope it is what the doctor ordered. The Rebbe Reb Meilach says it is a segula nifla'ah so I hope I am not so sick and out of the picture that this wouldn't apply to the likes of me. Or maybe hopefully he is speaking to everyone even someone who is highly problematic.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Aug 2015 05:57 #261054

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Shlomo hamelech said that ראית דרך איש ישר בעיניו meaning if you see a person that his derech is correct in his eyes then תקוה לכסיל ממנו meaning that the "ksil" that knows he is one has more hope.
In short there is no one main way to do this.What is THE KEY for success in my opinion it is knowing yourself. It is being aware of your thoughts.For many long years i did not realized that what i think at any given moment its not necessarily me , it is only a thought.Any thought you have its always a program for action. What a sponsor or any other tool does is try to make a meeting between you and yourself. We are used to react and think in certain ways to certain stimuli,awareness on how and why we think what we think is the secret.
Let me tell you one technique that works for me in the street.After much listening and learning and reading plenty i came to the realization that when i go out to the street (the old way), i resembled a big hungry shark that goes in the ocean ready to devour anything that presents itself in front of him.(there are many beliefs here about myself and the world).Women were plain simple objects of entertainment (that is a belief,deep deep by the root, whether you are aware of it or not).I couldnt have enough of them. Today (the new way) I resemble an old "sabale" (ישראל סבא) Thinking all this people in the street are people they have struggles with health, parnasa, children, etc. i wish them well i wish them good מה הוא רחום אף אתה, מה הוא חנון אף אתה; I fill myself with רחמנות and understanding on them.
My urges to see and to "swallow" somehow minimize themselves. This technique did not come just like that,a lot of listening i did until the "aha" moment.
I hope i helped you , not sure though. KOT !!
Last Edit: 06 Aug 2015 12:48 by newaction.
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