it has been explained many times here.

it serves nobody any good tellin' everyone that girls/women are scumbags and they should be avoided like the plague.
anyone that dares take a second look at a provocatively dressed woman is repulsive.
if you watch a movie cuz there's a nice actress there, you are sublime and below human.
how dare you look at a girl passin' by? don't you know she's human?
it's sick and disgustin' and downright dirty to entertain thoughts or fantasies of any form of copulation with anybody! Period!
Anyone caught oglin' should be ogled at the stake, for bein' a slimy swine.

I am not even gettin' involved in the women vs. objects vs. humans, etc.

This is not our mehalech.
Maybe some have it, but to the general populace here, it is counterproductive.

It is NORMAL to look at women.
One who does can regard himself as ORDINARY.

Those who are addicted to this type of behavior, or those who cannot stop themselves, or those who find that this is gettin' in the way of their life, or those who feel that this stains and taints their neshamah, or those who understand that the more they look where they shouldn't, the more they sever the connection between them and God......they need to find the tools to work on this. There are many out there. But check the whitebook. Search GYE's handbook. Look at the testimonials. Hell! Look in the Torah. Where does it say that one who engages in such a behavior is low and disgustin' and is performin' a despicable act?

Two points to conclude with.
1. We do say "anochi rimah v'solea." - as a viduy in yom kippur mode.
2. aveiros can be despicable to us...in the eyes of Hashem...all aveiros. How would one stop from shechting oso v'es beno? Would it be by tellin' himself how disgustin' it is?

Thank you (and Lavi, we just went thru this discussion somewhere else, and I believe you thanked me for my clarification there.)

b'hatzlachah

Agree.

While these things may be far below the level of humanity (mentchlichkeit) we the Chosen People were given the potential to reach, the fact is, in the eyes of us addicts it's beauty and art.

We just need to avoid it because we need to avoid it.

Because if we look we're going down.

Again.

AlexEliezer wrote:

Nicely said.

looking lustfully is as bad as i said before . and if you take a look at what i said it says looking LUSTFULLY. no handbook will accept that . No Tora will accept that . No Halacha will accept that . And i dont see what is all the furor about Mr Cordnoy.

Newaction,

Everything you wrote in your previous post is true. I think we all agree on an intellectual level.

It's just that this addiction isn't fought on the battlefield of the intellect. The whole thing doesn't make sense and we know it. Why do we fire up our reproductive system when we're alone. Silly, no? But we don't care. We're not about making sense. We're about feeling good.

newaction wrote:


i will repeat.
It is not!
such thoughts are counterproductive.
nowhere in the whitebook does it say the word despicable, low or disgusting.
The torah calls certain issurim to'eivah...includin' some non-kosher consumption.
Nowhere in the handbook does it say that it is low, disgustin' or despicable.
I am not an expert on the daily chizuk emails, but show me where they said that one who looks lustfully at a woman is a swine, or is lower than who knows what?

Sir, I have been readin' these posts on the forum for 16 months now, and perhaps there are isolated posters who have said things like you said, but the general populace does not say that. Lookin' lustfully is wrong, but it is not despicable. It is somethin' that we should correct. Sayin' things like that are counterproductive, imho, and that is what the fury is about. I am on this site for myself, but I am here for others as well, and I will not sit quietly while others, imho, derail the recovery process for people. We wanna change. We wanna do better. We wanna live again. I cannot stop you from sayin' things; i can state my views. i can also suggest to provide sources for outlier opinions.

Thank you

b'hatzlachah

i am talking about the act not the person doing the act .

Resh lakish said נואף בעין נקרא נואף שנאמר עין נואף שמרה נשף

looking in a lustful way is in itself adultery . adultery Mr cordnoy is not אותו ואת בנו . we have to have the right perspective of things . if i had once the pastime of looking at women it is because i could never imagine the adulterous side of it. and i am not talking about שכר ועונש . i can go on but i dont think it will serve the purpose. if to shut me up in the name of protecting all the oilam from me you came out with all this fury . you dont have to i will shut up myself.

newaction wrote:


i am fine with you.
You can see on many other threads that we have very nice, civil, thoughtful interactions, and I pray that this should continue.
It is specifically this thought, and actually it is somethin' that Dov thought I said a week or two ago, and he took me to task on that (actually - even used the word disgustin'), and then I explained myself.
I think it was on the mikvah thread.
Please look there.

You stated you are referrin' to the act, not the person.

Usin' that as a mashal to here, my 'fury' was at the thought expressed, not at you at all; I harbor no ill feelin's, and I pray that you continue to post.

thank you

Ceasefire! I think we all agree that objectively, certain things are "low" or animalistic. Certain arayos are called "toeva". Chazal even had harsh words for someone who eats while walking in the street. Giving in to our base desires is definitely not a refined way to act.

I think Cornoy's point is that thinking in that way doesn't necessarily help us, and isn't how WE honestly look at it. We (with our warped minds) think it is beautiful.

If a person finds that thinking about gazing at women etc. as low or beneath him helps, kol hakavod. Whatever works for you. For many of us it just makes us feel like dirt, and leads to depression, which leads to acting out...

It says "lo sasuru.... asher atem zonim..." Our natural state is "zonim". It takes work to elevate ourselves. I think an elevated person would see it as disgusting. I have even read many stories here where the poster said that the first time he saw porn, it was disgusting to him.

Try and tell a smoker that smoking is disgusting. You are not likely to get very far with that approach. Many years of smoking have made it, not only enjoyable, but absolutely neccessary, almost as neccessary as the air he breathes. For most of us, thinking that gazing etc. is disgusting just doesn't help (true as it may be).

And now we turn this thread back over to haMechaber, reb MevakeshBT.
How you doin' friend?

Hi. Thanks for thinking of me.

As far as following my commitments I am doing good. I read a bit of the GYE handbook and a part of a couple of ebooks each day, it takes a while but has a good effect. I think it's because it makes me accept I have a problem and reminds me not to get complacent, with thoughts like it won't do me any harm to have a few looks etc... I have had some real successes in the last few days with refusing to look, which is great.

But personally I'm not doing well. I just have this feeling of emptiness, worthlessness and meaninglessness. When I was looking at women at least I could feel like I was somebody and I didn't have these feelings. I'm assuming it will pass one day and I will be better for it. It's a massive change to just one day decide from now on I'm changing my life. I can't see anything beyond one day, any more just looks too dark. I just wish life could be different right now.

But I trust you guys and the proof you provide that there is hope!
Thanks and blessings to all of you!!

Wow!
Great stuff!
Thanks for the share.
Good work!

When you looked at women, it made you feel like something?
Interestin'....
by me, I think, it was the opposite.
All the 'stuff' I couldn't have.
After a fall, did I feel like somethin'?
Not lately.
Hell no!

I feel much more alive now.
My life is more meanin'ful.

Anyway, keep it up and don't be a stranger.

b'hatzlachah

When we are busy looking at women, we have a very engaging distraction from the emptiness and pain. When we are lusting, the feeling of nothingness and loneliness that so many of us feel is covered over by the excitement and sweetness of lust and women. In the beginning, if we have the guts to take the plunge and give away our drug, we are suddenly faced with all those feelings that we now have to find a new way to deal with.

mevakeshBT

I can relate to that discrepancy. And, yes. It will pass one day. At the very least it will be muffled, not as stark as it is today. And, yes. You will be better for it.

Can you accept life as it is right now and yet wish for it to be different?

We strive to fill the void with good, meaningful things.
Like friendships, family relationships, a chavrusa, a shiur, a hike, a bike ride, a new commitment to physical fitness or healthy eating. Talking to Hashem.
We replace our fantasy life with real life.

MZ and AE hit the nail on the head!