Pidaini, no, not enough. I need to learn how to do that especially on 'good' days. Which was exactly my point of יפה שעה אחת קודם.

There's no shaala that אלו ואלו.... Lichoira, Pidaini was referring to being AWARE of what's going on inside me. And like I saw 'ireallycan' mention, to see it as a passing cloud, as opposed to the feeling being something intrinsic, which can give it more 'realness' than it deserves.
(Notice he was referring specifically to feelings, NOT thoughts, which fits with much of, say, R' Dov's hashkafos. Hey, Shivisi, great minds think alike! ie. When it comes thoughts, 'don't pay attention' is the way to go.)
My experience has taught me that there couldn't be more of a difference between the two ('give full attention', and 'be aware'). The term being aware implies that it's NOT me- who I am. But by avoiding that feeling, I'm essentially saying that IS a part of me, and that I can't handle that.

So, more ups than downs. But it's been a tough week. Gotta get out of isolation. Gotta talk with real people about real stuff. Including reaching out before things get too hard. Will I ever get there? I'm so embarrassed when I'm wavering, when I'm on shaky ground. It also takes a certain level of self awareness that I sometimes struggle with when in middle of the fog. But, hodu lashem, still clean. So the self awareness is certainly better than 6 weeks ago. It feels to me like Hashem rewards me greatly for my shmiras einayim. In that the rest of the lust war seems more attainable.
may it be a zchus for those on the 'other' front lines. Amen

ineedchizuk wrote:


Embarrassed thats the word i was clean 28 days first time in LOL 40 years and i fell and couldn't find the word to describe how i felt. Thats it i was embarrassed thats it thanks for the word and i fell better .

ewards

ineedchizuk wrote:

I identify with this a lot.

For me the hardest thing was and is to admit to someone that I am lusting, that I "still" have difficulties. It is a blow to my ego that i cannot on my own and that asking for help can restore my sanity.

And of course the "cost" of that is having to admit afterwards that i fell.

As someone in SA told me: It is much easier to stay clean than to get clean!

May HaShem grant us sobriety, sanity and serenity.

Which is why us addicts in (so called) recovery mode still insist (and it's true) that lust is STILL an issue, and probably always will be.

b'hatzlachah

[quote="chesky" post=235743]ineedchizuk wrote:


You seem to have combined two different issues here.
One is the idea of admitting that you still need help and that you're not completely recovered yet, and that you "Still" have lust challenges.
And from the quote from the SA member, you referred to STAYING clean being harder than Getting clean.

BTW the 2nd concept is usually quoted by those who struggle with weight watching:
"It's not about losing those pounds it's about keeping them lost!"

In the Torah version of it, it's alluded to in the possuk
מי יעלה בהר ה
ומי יקום במקום קדשו
The first job is the יעלה בהר ה' but the real test is the מי יקום במקום קדשו

Shivisi, you might want to reread Chesky's post. He quoted just the opposite.

That יקום, keeping steady at any level, is EASIER than having to keep climbing out of a deep pit. And therefore it pays to reach out before the fall.

And lichoira, a recovering lust addict staying sober has a strong element יקום במקום קדשו.

ineedchizuk wrote:


Thank you INC, Your'e right - I did misread it, and that's because I DISAGREE!
For me, (once I seriously made the decision to do it, and I was given the tools and guidance by GYE - Thank you), the GETTING clean went easier than the constant struggle of STAYING fully clean.
As I quoted from the weight watchers.
Thus for me the יקום is a bigger challenge then the יעלה, as the meforshim explain the possuk is going in order of the level of praise.
But maybe it's not so for everyone in every circumstance.

for me, the staying clean is the hard part because it encompasses every nisayon I am given. it's easier to simply press restart after a fall than it is to not fall in the first place. but, it's clear that this is something that will vary from person to person.

both are harder

Snapping out of an addictive pattern is rough, which is why it takes so much time (could be years) and effort for so many of us until we reach out, and BEGIN the recovery process. Same with every fall. (So to say 'once I had the tools it was easy', well, if I'm comfortable in the sewer, the whole struggle is simply to decide to reach out for the ladder.) But once I start, there's also the initial excitement of growth that comes along with it, as is my experience, and as much of this forum attests to. ie. 'I'm clean for 10 days. I can do it. Feels amazing. I don't consider myself an addict. Being clean feels great.' Yeah, I'm sure you do feel good. After all,  you just climbed out of the dirty sewer and took a good shower!

But then come the wishy washy times, when my yetzer hara keeps teasing me to 'just slip once', 'just take a peek into the sewer, don't worry, you're strong, you won't slip and fall all the way in until you're filthy'.
That's when many of us realize that if just staying on ground level, just keeping myself from climbing down into the filthy sewer is such a difficult, intense nisayon, then maybe there IS an addictive element to this struggle of mine.
And that's where I, along with so many of us here stand. Learning to appreciate and be thankful just for being on ground level. For not being stuck down in the sewer. And investing all my energy just not to fall.

The rest of the hashkafa debates and advice about continuing to grow in other areas as a way to stay clean is nice advice and nice ideas.
But I very much appreciate where the guys who say 'too much thinking', 'one day at a time' 'don't mix religion with recovery' are coming from. Essentially, what they're expressing is that I can grow way above 'ground level' in many areas, keep myself busy, even reach madreigos in certain areas where I'm mamish a יעלה בהר השם!
But when the nisyonos of lust DO pop in, and shake my belief in myself by questioning all that I stand for, when  I, maybe a baal madreiga in other areas, have to reach out and beg for help, crying 'I wanna to climb into the sewer', 'I wanna ruin my future', at THAT point what seems to work for many is remembering that I AM sick,  and in this area of avodas Hashem I ain't high up on no mountain. Only a sicko will have such an urge to keep running to swim in the filth, risking losing everything. Using all the 'simple' 12 step tools I can get my hands on to stay strong in this moment is what's needed now.

I'm sure we all agree that those who are clean for a substantial period don't think it would be easier to fall once a day and get up! Hence, 'easier to be clean than get clean' (easier, not easy).

So although there might not be the asey tov aspects of יעלה OR יקום, there is certainly the concept of feeling the growth by סור מרע more when we start out on our journey. Taking the shower. The more subtle battles can in ways be harder. But not as hard as if we'd keep having to start at the bottom again.

'כל התחלות קשות'.
Then why is the first week of the zman,  why is the first two blatt of the new masechta so geshmak? The baalei mussar say 'because you didn't start yet'.

When the initial momentum and excitement of coming clean from a fall (whether 1 day or 10 years) fades away, and I'm confused, struck with this feeling of 'what's wrong with me,  why can't I just move on? I wanna drive an airplane, am I gonna have be on this tricycle my whole life?' That's when I need to tell myself the hard truth:

Welcome to the big leagues- welcome to recovery!

So first time in a month caught myself looking for something 'stimulating' to look at. Not even you tube. 'Just' faces. But it's all the same yetzer hara. Felt adrenaline rushing, and the need for more more more. Pulled myself away after 2 minutes to post this.

Realizing now that after a teriffic streak motivating myself to keep doing the next best thing, I had an awful morning not even wanting to think, and just procrastinating.

Going do daven for help. I need it.

Good for you,

I relate to that slip. Your strength to pull away and go Daven.. I think we all know how hard that can be. Keep it up!

but the main thing i want you to focus on here is that you pulled yourself away. for that you should be proud of yourself. that probably took tremendous strength! yea it feels awful to have found yourself looking at what you shouldn't, but the main thing here is to keep moving forward and focus on the next nisayon that may cross your path. keep up the good work!

That's okay! It happens. Did the same on Friday but you Just gotta back away and I find reaching out helps too! Helps to screw my head back on.

Keep it up!!!!