Torah Approach

I'm sure you'll find some goodies in here.

R' Orlofsky tells 18 year old FFB's who say I have never enjoyed Gemara, 'obviously, you never learnt Gemara. Come, and we'll learn Gemara for the first time.'

You guys (you and R'Orlofsky) have a mehalech, Lavi.

On the other hand, the Torah hashkafa for a problem with your car engine is to go to a mechanic, an earache to go to the Dr, and maybe for addictions, the 12 steps (it's refuah, no? But that's another subject).

I'm sure the heiliger Chazon Ish could have figured out from the Torah how to fix his oven, but he was probably ok with hiring a repairman.

i'm with you.
i can also understand why a person would become an addict, because of faulty hashkafos

ah, cordnoy great link to dov's posts,

this is the point, its the place that we all arrive at, and squirm because we have this inner terror of being an apikores for saying that torah cant help, some of us can get real help from torah (maybe not, i'm not sure, because i am a bit nogeah b'davar), but alot of us, who are really in the pits, need to step back from it all.

an apikores is someone who willfully denies God,
i dont willfully deny god, i have no idea who he is! the God i thought i knew coudnt help me stop myself from drowning in porn, so i need to take a step back, and start with simple basics, and maybe one day i will come to the one true god with truth, honesty, integrity, loyalty, commitment, and of course sobriety!

why is everyone so afraid of being an apikores?

it is very hard to become a real apikores, its not just about saying something that goes against frumkeit.

yet we are terrified of being branded by that title!

i think that more than being an apikores, its the fear of not fitting in. because when one person says something or does something that goes a little bit against the norm, we shut them up, and ostracize them for fear of losing the conformity of the group.

and so you have teens that start asking questions and all of a sudden they are a 'goy' because they are rocking the boat, so of course they go and leave yiddishkeit, because they are already a 'goy', might as well act like one!

in the beginning i was terrified of saying that torah can't help me, but the more i learned, and the more i masturbated through my silly holy chesbonos i realized that something needs to change, i need to start doing something differently.

i'm sorry if that bothers some people, but those people really need to ask themselves why it bothers them, is it because of real emes or because they are afraid of breaking the norm, of doing something different?

this fear was where i hid a lot of my addiction, this fear does so much damage to the frum addict.

the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results!

and to quote dov, from that awesome link cordnoy shared
"It all makes for a good, frum, sincerely religious....self-centered and self-absorbed goofball. In recovery Hashem gives us something very different, b"H."

and i wish you a lot of success.

the God i thought i knew coudnt help me stop myself from drowning in porn, so i need to take a step back- a.f.s

i understand your reasoning, and i think it makes sense.
at the same time if you would tell me, that you are reexamining your hashkafa's, i would also understand you, being that i think that this also can help recovery. whatever works, is a good way of going about things.

Really good posts afs

Especially the "God I knew couldn't help" beautiful!

he just meant from his perspective,
but he readily admits that he needs to get a new one some day.

@lavi

i know i need to reexamine my hashkafah, but not to help me in recovery, it only comes after recovery.

recovery, in a way, clears out the junk inside, and makes room for good healthy living, or some may call it hashkafah,

i cant rely on hashkafos to help clean up

i think this is what dov means when he explains derech eretz kodmah litorah

before i can get to torah i need to be healthy,

someone told me a story once that i think fits this idea

there was a very poor man,
he had a rich cousin who was preparing to make a wedding for his daughter, and the poor brother was so excited because he knew he would get invited to the wedding, and would be eating such wonderful delicacies at the wedding feast.

as the wedding day came closer, and closer, the poor man became more and more excited, but when the wedding was only a few days away, he started getting nervous. he hadnt yet received an invitation, and he thought that perhaps his cousin didnt want him to attend!

finally it was the day of the wedding, and still there was no invitation!
with a heavy heart, the poor man went about his day, and ate his meager supper like he would everyday. his meager supper consisted of stale bread and a few onions and garlic bulbs he was able to dig up.

meanwhile at the cousin's wedding, the rich cousin was wondering where hi poor cousin was. he knew that he had sent him an invitation, and was confused that he still hasnt arrived!

as the meal was about to begin, the cousin quickly sent someone to the poor man's house to pick him up, assuming that somehow the invitation never made it to its proper destination.

at this point the poor man had already finished his supper, but when he learned of the mix up, was overjoyed that he would be able to attend the feast anyway. the poor man quickly gets ready and rushes off to the wedding.

when he arrives he is greeted by his wealthy cousin and is ushered into a seat at the head table, which is piled high with the most amazing dishes he had ever seen.

with a great big grin on his face the poor man dives into the meal trying every type of food there is available.

but something was wrong.

with every bite, the poor man would make a face, and say "this is terrible!!!"
he tried every dish, and still it was all terrible!

the rich cousin was confused, he knew how special these foods were, he had chosen them himself! so what was wrong wit his poor cousin?

finally it came to him, he asked his poor cousin "when you thought that you werent able to come to the wedding, did you follow through your regular daily routine?" "Yes" the poor man answered. "and did you eat your regular daily supper of onions and garlic?" again, the poor man answered "yes".

"aha!" exclaimed the rich cousin, "the reason you cant taste the delicious food is because you have a terrible taste in your mouth from your onions and garlic!!!"

this story, really explains my relationship with torah and recovery.
i have a bad taste in my mouth with torah because of all this junk i had in me that warped torah's true nature,

i need to get the bad taste out (recovery) so that i can begin tasting the delicious delicacies (Torah,hashkafah...)

thank you DMS for the kind words!

sorry for the long post, the story was meaningful to me when i heard it, i hope it will be meaningful to others

thanks afs!!

iv'e heard that moshel in the past, do you remember who said it? and about what was it said?

I also thank you, and I respect you for sharin' your thoughts so eloquently, and with the beautiful mashal.

I just wanna say: Since I am lumped in to this viewpoint of bein' 'anti Torah' (on this side), I'd like to clarify two points.

1. I do not have that bad taste like you have; by me...it just didn't/doesn't work.

2. Torah should continue to flourish everywhere, includin' this site. Even as a method for someone else's recovery, and certainly for oneself. All I am sayin' is two things.
A. It should not be force-fed.
B. A person's opinion that Torah - for now- will not help him, should be respected.

Thank you

b'hatzlachah

I feel that I have been lumped into cordnoy's corner as well, so I will stand by him.

I would like to add that this should in no way prevent anyone from adding an appropriate dvar torah or mashal - these can always be used as a source of chizuk, if not a motivating factor.

Also, if you would meet me for real (cordnoy as well, I suspect), you would probably think it a bit ridiculous to say my viewpoint is anti-Torah. I have a very close kesher with a number of Rabbeim (okay, maybe not close enough to say everything I say here,...), some of whom are quite yeshivish, and I learn several hours each day (not trying to toot my horn, just trying to give a picture).

The simple fact is, as much as I love learning and Torah, my lust was too strong to overcome by learning sifrei mussar and imagining the painful punishment in the next world. I tried, it didn't work. Other things just work better for me.

So keep the vortlach, stories, and mesholim coming! I love every one. Just don't imply that that's enough to make me want to stay clean.

Moish

hi friends,
sorry for being a bit of a nudge,
i just wanted to clarify a few points.
1)there is a difference between using torah as recovery and
2) reexamining correct torah views
i was suggesting that even if someone feels that torah will not help him now, it may be an idea to reexamining his haskafas
3) for those who feel that ANYTHING that has to do with religion is now OUT-OF-BOUNDS, i can understand, just keep in mind the idea of reexamining may come up one day even before you can use torah for recovery, for those that feel that even this is too much, ok i understand it also.

one more point, i don't mean anyone specific, but the following i had the following thought .
what works for goyim in recovery, may not also work for jews, this is because we have certain differences that are inherent.
of course there is a lot that may work!! but that i don't have to tell anyone,
i wanted to point out the other possibility.
and if someone finds himself after an extended time, of trying everything out there, and nothing seems to work, it may be that he should examine his haskafas.
and i hope that all of us become recovered jews.

just to clarify a point in the Mashul,
when i spoke of a bad taste, i wasnt reffering to the torah inof itself having a bad taste, or the experinece of torah being bad, i donthave a actual problem with the Torah itself, i found that i warped some of it, and especially the parts that had to do with me justifying my addiction. thebad taste refers to the shmutz itself.

the poor man thought that he was going to only eat the garlic and onions, but what he didnt realize is that it ould hurt him from tasting true beautiful foods later.

of course true, honest to god torah is ok, and is welcomed, but we just need to remmeber that for some of us it didnt work. maybe becasue it was totally warped or maybe becasue it simply didnt work, becasue our warpiness held us back from truly hearing the torah.

the pitfalls that a frum addict may find himself in are using torah as an excuse to never get help. (notice the emphasis on the may)

there is a certain tendency that i have noticed among frum people to turn Torah into some kind of wonder drug, that can cure everything and anything, when clearly chazal has said that the Torah can be a "Sam HaChaim" or a "Sam Hamaves". And heaven for fend anyone dare say anything bad about (see my post on being an apikores above!)

i do believe that a lot of addicts (myself) have turned Torah into a "Sam Hamaves" at least when it comes to sex related things.

by the way, i am frum, i consider myself a Torah Jew, i went to good yeshivos, and i still believe (believe it or not) that Torah is the sweetest thing there is and that we all should connected to it, but as an addict i found that i couldnt use Torah to help me!

Hashem wants honesty, thats all,

i think some people are afraid of real honesty,

if youre honest about Torah working for you, Great!
if youre honest about Torah not working right now, also great!

if you are not honest, though, and use the Torah, abuse the Torah, and justify your crazy sickness with the torah, well... not so great.

i do have to reexamine my hashkafos, i need to desperately , but while i am really sick like this, i can't, it wont go, so i need recovery, i need to fix my neural pathways in 90 days, i need to relearn how to think like a healthy normal human being,
impossible you say?
well that is the miracle of recovery!
who is this higher power, that will do it?
i dont know, maybe one day he will reveal himself to me,
Is torah true? yes
do i need to keep its laws and ethics? yes
why? i thought i knew, but i have to redo that at some point (sooner than later!)

anyway,
this post is long enough,

@dd

i heard the mashul, from a holy jew, in the holy city of bnei brak, dont know what the source is, sorry

he was talking about torah, of course!