lavi
you gotta be careful with those stories
they are nice for non-addicts

but for me its poison,
if i let myself think that i am triggering because i am really holy, than i will continue fooling myself all the way back into the abyss of porn.

those stories are for gedolim who are nowhere near addiction, for me, its a trick of my addiction to get me to fall again

I personally think the steak mashal (the latter one) works very well, and I don't see how what anyone else said directly contradicts the fact that:
Just like eating good food, we have a natural desire to look at women. Regardless of how attractive or attractively dressed, it gives us some level of fleeting pleasure - the female form has some natural beauty that we are attracted to.
The act of turning our heads to look at a passing woman, regardless of the thoughts that follow and how sexual in nature they are, will always have some negative impact (IMHO), whether we can recognize and feel that impact or not.

I find keeping my eyes in front of me to be a difficult battle as well, and the women in the neighborhood where I work are rich enough to afford clothes that don't cover much (I think it's an inverse relationship between size of garment and price). I have actually started driving a slightly longer way home recently to avoid the side streets and stay on the highway, where people don't walk. I'ts a small change, but I feel the action has a roishem on our thought process (neshama?), no matter how small, much like the small act of turning the head mentioned earlier.

[quote="afreshstart39" post=237125]Those stories are for gedolim who are nowhere near addiction.../quote]

1. There's a story told about a bochur who told R' Eliyahu Lopian ZT"L that the sight of women does nothing for him since it's completely normal and not attracting. R' Elya answered him, "I'm over 70 years old, and half blind in one eye, and hardley have any more Taivos for Olom hazeh, and still when a woman passes me on the streett, the YH still nags me to "take another look", so you can't tell me that it does nothing to you at your age, and with your urges etc.!
2. I heard the following story personally from the person who was there when it took place:
R' Aharon Kotler Ztz"l came back to Lakewood from a trip and he told the Bachur who was escorting him to immediately take him to the bais medrash and bring him a mussar sefer!
The Bachur said to him, "Don't you want to eat something first?", [he had not eaten all day].
In response R' Aharon asked him, "Didn't you notice that as we walked out of the elevator at the last place we went, a woman walked into the elevator?"
The Bachur said "I don't think I noticed her, and if I did I don't recall it".
R' Aharon said "That's why I need to learn mussar right now, even before I eat anything, because I DID NOTICE! and I DO RECALL IT!.
And then R' Aharon added "and maybe you should join me, because maybe you might have noticed her also". [He was obviously saying that it's not possible that it does not affect someone at all. He said "maybe" in sensitivity to the talmid].

Each person should take whatever lesson they can from these two stories.

cordnoy wrote:


thanks for explaining.
the truth is it, the way i see it,it really isn't two different things, rather the sensitivity of someone can be as such, that even the curiousity aspect is bothersome to them, because it has a "smeck" of lust. not so others, who don't even realise where their curiousity comes from.

afreshstart39 wrote:


look buddy, i will try to do anything to make all the chevra happy. i don't wanna be dissin' with nobody.
and if you don't like those stories, so on your thread i will try to avoid them.

but if you care to hear my opinion,
i was saying something very grounded. the holier you are, the more your sensitivity grows. and their is nothing wrong with thinking that you ARE holy. and i didn't mean the holy kind which starts playing with angels in their spare time, or the holier-than-thou kind, or any kind of holey holiness, rather the FACT that you are jewish has inherent holiness, whether you like it or not. AND i don't see how thinking about our holiness once in a while, is gonna make us trip on lust.
i didn't say that anyone can turn into a godol overnight, but stories are there to gain encouragement on our levels.

I used to tell myself that I checked out every girl that I saw, not because I was a pervert, but because I found women to be works of art and I was a connoisseur. In other words I was telling myself a story to make me feel like less of a pervert.

Truth is I still don't understand why I am driven me to want to check out every girl I see, but I do know that it is lust that drives it. I can't understand the pleasure I get from looking, but I know that I am getting pleasure at someone else's expense. 90% of the time there were no other fantasies attached, just enjoying the view. But lust is about taking. Taking pleasure, usually at someone else's expense.

Now it is true that as guys we have a hard wiring to notice girls, and this is where the 3-second rule comes in. We are out and about and we see things, this is normal. It is when the seeing becomes a device of taking pleasure that we start lusting. The idea behind the 3 second rule, imho, is that we have to divert our attention before the seeing becomes lusting, because it will if we let it.

MBJ


I'm not disagreeing with you.

I am just pointing out that obsessing over noticing women in the first place is unhealthy and counterproductive.

Noticing that a woman is there is not lust.
Looking for women to lust after, is.
Soaking in the sights after the noticing, is.

Let it go.

MBJ wrote:


You and others have said this many times. I agree with the rest of your post. I have disagreed with this part of the post in the past, and I will voice my simple non-understandin' again.

By me, lust is not about takin'...it is about me and my pleasure.
When you stare excessively at a woman in the street or whoever and wherever your object of desire is, you are not takin' from her, and it is not at her expense. She loses nothin'.

this is where the disagreement about prayin' for her came in as well. I spoke to Dov extensively about this. I will not put words in his mouth, but at the end of the conversation, I understood that by prayin' for her, you are elevatin' her status, viewin' her as a person who has nothin' to do with you. It is not as a counter to takin' from her.

Whatever, LBJ, you are still the king in my book.

Thanks

b'hatzlachah

When the Gemara (Shabbos 64b) says that anyone who "looks" even at the little finger of woman is as if they "look" at makom haturfah, the lashon the Gemara uses for "look" is "mistakel." The Mishna in Avos also says be "mistakel" in 3 things and you will not come to do an aveira (this is just an example of a use of this word).
The word obviously does not mean "to look," because you cannot look at where you came from, etc. It means something along the lines of "contemplate," "think about," "analyze," etc.

IMHO, what the gemara appears to be saying is that the issue is not necessarily with what the eyes are doing, rather, with what the mind thinks. When you see a woman in your peripheral vision and turn your head to look, that alone should constitute "histaklus," because you made a conscious decision to look at her. Even if she's fully dressed, it's still a problem, much the same as "histaklus" at a woman's little finger.

@shivisi

my comments were not about the stories themselves, i think they are great stories, and they reveal the level of sensitivity that the gedolim have, which we should emulate to the best of our ability.

perhaps i shouldnt have divided everyone into addicts and non-addicts, rather this is how i felt it affects me, personally

lavi's stories were in response to someone who was looking at women in the street, and was confused by why he was doing it,

@lavi
you said that it may be because he was so sensitive to unholy things as described in your stories, becasue of his holy nature, which may very well be true

cordnoy said that it may be holiness, or it may simply be lust,

i agree with cordnoy, that it is very possible its simply a lust thing,

at least when it comes to my own condition, i feel that if i dont recognize that its lust i am a goner, i cant afford to think that it may be a holiness thing in me, because then i lose sight of the real issue

i do believe that i am intrinsically holy, and that i should be sensitive to that fact, but when it comes to lust, i cant worry about being holy or not holy, i cant think about my neshama, and my mission as an eved hashem,this comes before all that, of course i am holy and am an eved hashem, but i cant let lust dictate the way i move through my mission on this world

i think dov once explained that its like driving a car
some people are good at driving and some people are not good at driving and should learn to drive better, but i cannot drive at all, i need to get out of the car and walk

(please forgive me if i have used this analogy erroneously)

lavi, if i have misunderstood your intention, i am sorry,
all i was trying to do, and it is the reason i have been rambling on for some time, is to explain that the moment i think that a trigger is pulling me, not because of lust, but because of something else, i am doomed

but of course the stories themselves are very good, and special, and we should all learn from them as best we can

i hope you don't mind me clarifing my words
of course i understand that it is lust.
but what is wrong with thinking that lust and kedusha are the opposite ends of the spectrum?
does it bother you to think that step away from lust is a step toward kedusha?
does it bother you to know that kedusha isn't just something else. it is exactly what you are doing when you're trying to battle lust?
why does "this come before all that?" why can't this be ALL that?
it seems like you would rather strip all religious issues out of your struggle. why?
for me the issue of lust and kedusha are interwined, and i don't understand any reason to separate them.
again religion doesn't have to mean to us malachim flying about and all kinds of incomprehendible stuff.
there is a very practical side of living the way Hashem wants us to.
and lust is a battle for the soul as well as the body.
when someone is battling lust just for mental/physical health, then it is quite difficult to get anywhere. and it makes sense that Hashem should help you when you are doing it for religious reasons, more than just you're own wellbeing.
i understand the pressure issue, but it doesn't have to be a pressure, Hashem lets you handle things without unhealthy pressure, so why cut kedusha and religious reasons out of the picture?

Hakdamah:

What works for you is fine.
What works for others is fine.
I am not sayin' what others should do.
I will only say why I chose a different path.

I have been dealin' with God, religion and Torah my entire life.
it never stopped me from porn or actin' out.
Why should it now?
I needed a new approach.
Somethin' different.
Somethin' that I could relate to.
Somethin' removed from the past years of failure.
I didn't want three things or four; i wanted one.
What will take me over the top?
What will prevent me from fallin'?
What will keep me sober?
What will be with me for my "one moment at a time" whenever I need it?
[You might answer God or kedushah right here; for me, that was not and would not be the answer.]

My answer to every single one of those questions was simply that i wanted to live.

Live my life.
Live a life where I could be in control as much as possible (and yes; at times, this is at odds with some of the steps....especially surrenderin').

Like i wrote in a different post....the fact that i now have several seconds in between look # 1 and look # 2 is nothin' less than bliss. I can then use the tools i acquired to choose if I wanna continue livin'.

Is there kedushah in there?
Yes; but that's not what i think about.


thanks

b'hatzlachah to everyone - each in their own workin' way

Although dov doesn't grace his presence here too often, here is one of his posts on the topic:

Well put cordnoy,

i just had a problem with the control part

i wish to clarify.
I am not saying anyones approach has to based only on religious issues.
I am not saying that religion alone has to work for everyone.
what I am saying is that it shouldn't bother anyone, if recovery does have a positive impact on religion.
and if a step away from lust is a step into kedusha, why should it bother anyone? I didn't say the TOOLS were from religion.
SO please live your life! enjoy! don't FOCUS on kedusha, but why should you disown it? what is wrong with acknowledging that recovery is good for your neshama, whether this helps you or not, it still remains a intellectual point, that I don't understand any objection to it.