Keep 'em coming please. Anyone who reads your thread will be able to see what the ultimate goal is and that it is possible to elevate themselves after a signifacant drop off in inyonei z'hirus, even if we are not on that level yet!

Also, isn't it really all the same battle?

Just MHO.

ok update.
I have already benefited from this last post of mine.
I don't remember exactly what I was thinking before but now I have been made to realize in private conversation (off the forum record)that really it is the same issue that I have been dealing with until now. It is still an issue of lust.
Just the specifics is different.
so I guess, I am still lusting just in a different channel.
Sort of like how my thought process was once that I can lust for my wife because it is muttar (Pre- GYE thought process) I guess in my mind I was thinking "hey it is not as bad as porn and masturbating. those things are REALLY ASSUR with serious consequences. Looking at women is the street is not as bad."
Well there you have it, I caught myself lying to myself once more. Lust is lust. I still have a lust issue that I have to deal with.
(Gee am I glad I posted that earlier)

I have been thinking alot about shmiras eynayim the last few days. Been alot better and it has been on my mind most of the time I was in the street.
I can't really figure it out.. (I know, I know, we aren't supposed to figure it out, Just do it. Sorry but here I go again anyways)
It can't be that lust is what brings me to look at every women that passes in the street. (By the way where are all the men? How come I only see women wherever I go????) Very often I look and move on. No sexual thoughts, no fantasy and no arousal. This I realized today is probably because i have the zechus to live in a neighborhood that can afford to buy clothes to cover their bodies (but not too wealthy to be buying trendy clothes, I guess)So most of the women around are not very triggering in terms of lust.
So then why do i keep looking at every woman in the street?
I am thinking that really behind all this is the fact that there is an innate pleasure in seeing women. So then there is a tayva to get the pleasure of seeing the women. And to use another steak analogy (sorry Cordnoy- you just got me in the mood) people like to eat. It is a pleasure.It is enjoyable and ultimately there is a concept of tayvos achila. I have seen people (myself included) look around and although the food that is on the table is not the best food in the world, they will eat it anyway for lack of something better. People will nibble on anything, even it is a little bland, too salty, or dry - just because it is there. that is how the tayvas achila works.
So I guess the same is true for the tayvas reiyah. as long as there is something to look at, even if it isn't the most pleasurable sight i have seen in my life, I will have the urge to look. Maybe if there is a choice of two sights i will choose the better steak (oy there i go again) of the two, but if there is only a dried out piece of shnitzel I will still have the urge to go for it.
So once i realized this, it sort of put it in perspective and made things a little easier. But it is an ongoing battle.

so that is not lust.
someone who eats because it is there....it is not good and he is not hungry, what is that called?
Sorry, I don't even care what you answer me.....bottom line....we are doin' it because we enjoy lustin'!
I am an addict; are you?

ok cordnoy.
I got your point.
It actually reminded me of a thought that passed through my mind over the last few days.
Perhaps I misunderstood the meaning of lust. I thought lust had to be related to sexual thoughts. If I look at a woman and no sexual thoughts come to mind, and it is lust that brought me to look, then what is lust?
Please enlighten me.

You say, "lust brought you to look."
What does that mean?

I meant that as you said we look because we enjoy lusting so I assume that was why I looked (I was agreeing to you). I was hoping YOU would explain to me what I meant.

I am not pleased that you are hookin' me into this discussion.

You said that you look because you lust but you have no sexual thoughts, so what is lust?

I replied: You look because you lust....that must mean somethin' to you.

Yet, you have no sexual thoughts? What are those? You don't have to have cohabitation in mind in order to fulfill Webster's definition of lust.

Lust is simply our enjoyment of lookin', fantasizin', thinkin, dreamin', etc. about anything that eventually leads to arousal of some sort.

I really don't understand the issue at hand...sorry.

My point was that there are clearly times when my looking will not lead to arousal. (at least I don't think so)
Also, maybe what is bothering me is that when I walk in the street, let's say to go to shul, and I am thinking about a million things that have nothing to do with arousal or fantasies, and there are a few women walking up the block, dressed in a tzniusdeke way my head automatically turns to look.
In a sense, I always thought that it was from curiosity. But I am never curios about men walking down the street.
So I was trying to understand that.
Now if you tell me that it is lust that causes me to look, I don't understand. I can't relate to that. So perhaps I am not fully understanding what lust really is.
I guess it is good that I have been forced to take a step back and reevaluate what this lust thing is doing to me.

it's an eventuality.
This is part of it.
that is what we enjoy doin'.
it doesn't mean that anythin' will happen because of it.
this is part of our make-up.

dear friend una,
it really seems that you want to understand yourself better.
that alone, i think, makes you deserve a round of applause, at least in my eyes.
a lot of people are struggling just to keep their head above the water, that they don't get the presence of mind to try and understand themselves better.
but b"h you have got to a stage, where don't seem to be in great danger from lust, nevertheless the looking issue has you puzzled.
my humble opinion.
there are many levels of lust. what may seem to one as a struggle, to his friend is a non issue. sometimes the more developed a person is in k'dusha, the more acute he feels the fine tuggings of lust, whereas a regular person may not even notice anything.
examples, Harav M.A Stern from Kamenitz- I was zoiche to see him remove his glasses when he used the bus, because he felt any simple innocent gaze would be a slip on his behalf, even though he probably had zero feelings for actual lust, on his level he felt the "dust" of lust with a simple look
Harav .... used to bury his head, when he past times square.
it would seem that the urge to look, even at non attractive women, has it's lust related roots, it just a matter of sensitivity.
i want end the point (sorry for darshening!!) with a story.
one of gerrer rebbe's was approached by a professor, who told him "can it be that a woman's voice is ossur?" what can come out from just a voice?" "i listen to singing the whole time, and it is really no big deal"
the rebbe asked him "is the skin from an african better than a european? because he can withstand harsher conditions? isn't the skin of the european more sensitive and fine? the professor replied "oy rebbe, you are so right"

It could be kedushah, or it could be plain old simple 'lust.'

please explain

you explained very eloquently and it seems that you hinted for others that they could be on such a high level that the mere sight of a woman triggers their sensitivity.
That can be the case.

I was positing that perhaps for some people it can be mere simple animalistic lust...like it is by me...I wanna see a woman...I wanna see her mode of dress or undress....im curious if I could see more.....what color is she wearin'...etc., etc. etc.

do I plan on doin' anything with this info?
Nope!
Not with her; not with another; not for myself.

I am still lustin' though.

unanumun


Or it could just simply be nature.

We are wired to be attracted to females, period. We can be looking in a totally different location, a lady will enter the proximity and our natural response will be to turn and look. It's what we do next that really matters. We are told, lo sasuru acharei eineichem, don't stray after your eyes. Sometimes we will see things, that's the way life is. We then have a choice: Will we follow our eye's lead, and continue looking and thinking and fantasizing, or will we look away and put it out of mind?

Don't get hooked on a NORMAL natural response and make a bigger deal of it than it is.