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A Journey Without a Name
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TOPIC: A Journey Without a Name 60903 Views

Re: first try 01 May 2014 15:45 #231018

  • unanumun
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TZ, I am scared of Dov making me face my real problems.

Re: first try 01 May 2014 15:57 #231019

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Three thoughts from today's rosh chodesh mussaf.

1. ותשועת נפשם מיד שונא Indeed the yetzer harah is our Soyneh, He hates us. I think that I have to focus on the fact that not only is the yetzer horah trying to get me to do aveiros, but he is my sworn enemy. He hates me. He wants to hurt me, not just get me to sin.
If your sworn enemy came over to bring you a nice juicy steak, wouldn't you be suspicious that there is something wrong with it no matter how good it looked?
So the next time the yetzer harah tries to tempt me with some gishmake zachim, I have to think twice at what is it that he is really trying to feed me.

2. We all know the feeling of falling. we all know how hard it is to pick ourselves up and start again. however, I noticed that we say every rosh chodesh "חדש עלינו את החודש הזה....למחילת חטא ולסליחת עון" we are asking Hashem for a fresh start to forgiveness. every month. again and again. and Chazal wrote the nussach. It must be ok to start again and again.

3. we say in modim "ועל חיינו המסורים בידיך" reading about the 12 steps has given me a more meaningful understanding of the concept of our lives being given over to Hashem. Three times a day (and today five - mussaf and when i repeated modim because i forgot yaleh veyavo) we are recognizing and stating that our lives are given over to Hashem. (does that count for an SA meeting every day. or only if I am the chazzon and say it out loud?)

Re: first try 01 May 2014 19:10 #231029

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Baruch Hashem, I reached 30 days on the chart. That's a whole month. Wow. Time flies when you're having fun.
Had a very special last 24 hours with the Mrs. (והמבין יבין)I think that working on this has made a real difference.
1. I am sure that I had a huge siyata dishmaya after my nisoyon earlier in the week. (for those that remember)
2. Between working on myself and reading the different posts, I have come to refocus on my wife's needs and not mine. I became more aware of giving my wife her space and not being pushy.

Actually a few months ago we had decided together that instead of every night being up in the air and having tension, we will make sunday night and wednesday the kavua times. (For technical reasons those were the ones we decided on) I would make sure to be home by midnight and she would make sure to be not tired, taking an earlier nap if need be, and making sure the kids were in their own beds. (There can always be exceptions in both directions - and there were.)

The last month and half or so everything got out of schedule but to make a long story short last night was Wednesday night.I misread her signs and thought that she wasn't in the mood. Applying all the lessons I learned here, without saying anything (and even without feeling any frustration) I just proceeded to my own bed to go to sleep. Well I was wrong, and I thing the fact that I gave her space was wonderful to her. After shmoozing somewhat, she was able to relax from her day and there developed an intense emotional connection and the rest is not for a public forum.
I feel like our relationship has been rekindled and was somewhat reminiscent of the early days of out marriage, such intense emotional feelings for each other haven't been part of the game for such a long time.
It is amazing how such a short time of focusing on my lust problem has allowed me to grow so much and in a way cut through so many barriers that I didn't even realize were there. Over a quiet breakfast after the kids got out to school, I felt like I was back to shana Rishona (which was an exceptionally special time for us)
I just want to thank everybody here as I have a tremendous feeling of hakaras hatov to all I have accomplished from this site. I especially want to thank publicly (in this anonymous way:cheer: )Pideni who was the first to reach out and chat with me and that initial contact was really what helped me break barriers and feel a part of the action. Also I want to thank Dov for reaching out to me through PM and helping me with the original stages of figuring out what was going on with me and help me make sense of all my thoughts when I first started my journey (As well as all his tough love that helped me with real introspection and being able to get myself onto the path to 90 days and beyond)
I know that this is not over. I will have many nisyonos to overcome, and will have my ups and downs. But today is a real up day and wanted to share it with everyone (and add it to my diary thread so I can go back and give myself chizuk when I need to)

Re: first try 01 May 2014 19:19 #231030

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Just one more thought about this Kavod thing. I know we all want kavod and I saw several posts about other people wondering why there were not so many comments on their threads, but I think that it is not only about kavod.
I think that perhaps, men are b'etzem mashpiim and that is especially true in the area of tahmish. However, by being motzi zera levatalah, we are taking a koach of hashpaah and wasting it. As a tikun sort of, when we discuss these issues and post on threads we have a undrlying ratzon to be mashpia on others. The desire for comments is not only about kavod, it is also about wanting to know that we are being mashpia on others.
Just a thought. but on that point, I have also noticed that although there are only a few people that are actually active on the forums, there are many more that are reading them without participating in the discussion, so we should all know that even if no one comments, we are bound to be mashpia on others and are being mechazek them and helping them with their struggles. And if not now than one day there will most probably be some new guy that looks through old forums and gets chizuk from reading about other peoples' journeys.

Re: first try 01 May 2014 21:47 #231033

  • dd
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unanumun, these posts are amazing, keep em' flowing.

regarding the last thing you wrote about, i once heard that a magid shiur asked r' shlomo zalman zt"l how can he get all the talmidim to follow so he answered him thats not your goal you need to keep on saying so that those who want to can follow, today can be other ones then the day before and so on (r' shlomo zalman said that he does the same when he has to give shiur),

same goes for posting we need to share what we think can help who and when it will have affect on is not our goal,

so just keep on posting away!!!! and keep up the good work!!!!
Last Edit: 01 May 2014 21:55 by dd.

Re: first try 04 May 2014 18:25 #231136

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Had a nisayon today, but thanks to the program managed to nip it in the bud.
I was sitting around the house doing not much of anything. when I finally got up to change I got an urge to act out.
It wasn't a very strong urge and I easily distracted myself for a few seconds, but then I got an urge just to get my self a little excited without serious extended masturbating. My yetzer harah was telling me big deal. It wouldn't even be a fall and maybe not even a slip. (Of course once I got out of the situation, I realized that this was one of his classic tricks. How many times did I start on that path until I was in a situation that i was no longer thinking and ended up acting out until the end. )
I was able to take the few seconds to realize that even if it wouldn't be a fall, it is still asur and we say say viduy for being makshe atzmi ledaas. I managed to get out of the bathroom in one piece.
It's amazing. such a process would've easily gone a different path had I not been focusing on beating this thing. I guess just focusing on fighting helps with siyata dishmaya to prevent a fall.
It's been a long time since I had this particular nisayon. It was actually a challenge to actually post it. I was starting to feel that I was becoming above such behaviors. I am glad I have the venue to be able to write about these things and actually force myself to face it instead of just forgetting about and moving ahead till the next nisayon.
Last Edit: 04 May 2014 18:26 by unanumun.

Re: first try 04 May 2014 20:41 #231141

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unanumun!!!!

GEVALDIG!!!!!!!!!

for sure staying aware helps us pull out in time, when we focus its definitely much easier,

your attitude is really helping you and mechazek me (and i'm sure others)

kol tuv and KOMT!!!

Re: first try 04 May 2014 23:00 #231146

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WAHOOOO!!!!!

Baruch Hashem! Great work!!! That's exult what we gotta do. Be aware and remember we can choose! We don't need to act out!
I am happy to speak on the phone. Please email me at dms1234ongye@gmail.com

My name is Daniel, I go to face to face meetings and I work the 12 steps with a sponsor. 
Last Edit: 05 May 2014 23:03 by dms1234.

Re: first try 05 May 2014 10:55 #231155

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unanumun wrote:
Had a nisayon today, but thanks to the program managed to nip it in the bud.




I too had an interesting nisayon episode yesterday:
I needed to take a taxi from one place in Yerushalayim to another which was about a 25 minute drive away.
I stopped a taxi on the street, and told the driver (who was not frum)where I wanted to go and asked how much he would charge for the ride. We haggled a little, (keminhag hamokom) and came to an agreed upon price.
I was sitting up front next to the driver and he began asking me where I live and what I do etc.
He then went on to tell me that he was divorced so he basically spent most of his daytime hours "on the road"-
and his nighttime hours "HERE" - and with that he handed me his Iphone which had on its screen a photograph of himself sitting in a "men's club", surrounded by n--- females (etc.).
I immediately looked away and tried to give him back the Iphone. He said to me "if you want to, you can look through the rest of the photos of the club."
I told him that I didn't, and I put the Iphone into the holder between the seats.
He then began asking me if I ever had an urge to come to such a club, etc. etc. and I said that I didn't want to talk about these things with him.
He kept on asking and trying to draw me into a discussion about it.
I then said to him "if you don't stop I'll just get out now". At first he just ignored me and continued discussing his activities etc. but when I insisted he said ok,I'll stop.
As we traveled on he was silent, BUT I found my eyes pulling themselves toward the Iphone next to me.
Although it was lying face-down I kept glancing at it, as if I wanted to see through it to the screen.
I tried to distract myself by concentrating on looking out the window, but It was futile, It was like "trying NOT to think of purple elephants".
I was getting more and more frustrated that I could not control myself, so I just told the driver "I'm sorry I need to get out right now".
He said that if I did I would still have to pay the originally agreed upon fare, because he was hired for the whole trip. I tried to argue the point but he said "I'm not stopping unless you pay me the full amount!".
I just needed to get away from that car and driver so I paid the full amount and I got out.
I was now under pressure to get to where I needed to be without delay so I hailed the first taxi which came by.
After entering the BACK SEAT of the taxi, (I wasn't taking any chances this time) and saying "please take me to.... quickly!" I noticed that the driver was a woman! (pretty much of a rarity, especially in these neighborhoods), and since it was quite a warm day in Yerushalayim yesterday, her mode of (un)dress reflected the weather.
I again diverted my eyes toward the scenery outside but my mind began "wandering".
This time I did not hesitate for a second and I said "please stop here, I need to get out". (she had turned on the meter right away, so I just paid the meter fare.
This time I made sure to hail a male taxi driver, AND sit in the back seat AND not talk to the driver other than to tell him of my destination.
I was a bit flustered by the whole episode, but I thanked Hashem that I was able to get through it without any serious "mishaps".
Last Edit: 05 May 2014 11:03 by shivisi.

Re: first try 05 May 2014 14:40 #231162

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Wow!!! That's some serious Truckin'
!אנא עבדא דקודשא בריך הוא

וּבְיָדְךָ כֹּחַ וּגְבוּרָה וּבְיָדְךָ לְגַדֵּל וּלְחַזֵּק לַכֹּל

And every day that you want to waste, that you want to waste, you can
And every day that you want to wake up, that you want to wake, you can
And every day that you want to change, that you want to change, yeah
I'll help you see it through...


"If it would be so easy there wouldn't be a GYE, but if it would be impossible there also wouldn't be a GYE."

"Sometimes a hard decision leads to an easier outcome."

- General Grant



My story: guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/111583-hello-my-friends

Re: first try 05 May 2014 19:20 #231176

  • unanumun
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dms and dd - thanks
shvisi- that's a great story.
I had sort of a relapse again today of the same episode of yesterday. I had to open my browser block to reload some apps that got erased. I never got around to asking my wife to relock it. I haven't had a problem with porn sites just kosher news sites and stuff. i have been spending too much time laying in bed or on the couch reading the news. Every time i do so i think to myself i should have my wife lock it now but then i am afraid that she will realize that i was browsing the internet and not reading emails and she hates when I browse the net in the house in front of her. so i push it off until next time.
anyways after sitting around for a while and reading the news this morning when i was supposed to be waking up, i ran out of kosher articles that attracted my attention and my mind started to wander to ....
I had this thing in my mind telling me to look for porn and the heck with the 90 days thing. there are so many guys that fall after a month. it wouldn't be such a big deal to fall and start again. (now that i am several hours removed from the incident it seems like such a silly argument to have with myself)
so i managed to hold myself back. (actually I cheated a little and found a kosher outlet for my lust. the kids are all out in the mornings. it may not be so great but at least it wasn't a fall and all enjoyed with no guilty feelings. There is a gemara about Rava running home in middle of the day to his wife after some woman accidently exposed her arm in beis din. so I guess it is not as bad as it seems. i am not rava but this wasn't just an exposed arm.)
I think I understand what happened now. Since i was just sitting around doing nothing and looking for articles that catch my attention, somehow the mind wants itself to be triggered into shocking things. ecspecially since some of the articles were a little interesting (not sexually but in the sense of dog bites man is not news but man bites dog is) so that whole theory of the mind needing a shocking experience which the porn provides, definately kicked in. baruch hashem i was able to hold myself back from falling (and baruch Hashem my wife was home) but the lesson to be learned is:
1. Gotta get that browser locked again
2. gotta really work harder on getting up early in the morning and not sitting around doing nothing (I really have a ton of things to do - I just have a psychological block to starting my day because once i start i am going straight until late at night - any eitzos with this issue would also be welcome)
3. gotta KOT and KOP

Re: first try 06 May 2014 02:46 #231200

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shivisi wrote:
unanumun wrote:
Had a nisayon today, but thanks to the program managed to nip it in the bud.




I too had an interesting nisayon episode yesterday:
I needed to take a taxi from one place in Yerushalayim to another which was about a 25 minute drive away.
I stopped a taxi on the street, and told the driver (who was not frum)where I wanted to go and asked how much he would charge for the ride. We haggled a little, (keminhag hamokom) and came to an agreed upon price.
I was sitting up front next to the driver and he began asking me where I live and what I do etc.
He then went on to tell me that he was divorced so he basically spent most of his daytime hours "on the road"-
and his nighttime hours "HERE" - and with that he handed me his Iphone which had on its screen a photograph of himself sitting in a "men's club", surrounded by n--- females (etc.).
I immediately looked away and tried to give him back the Iphone. He said to me "if you want to, you can look through the rest of the photos of the club."
I told him that I didn't, and I put the Iphone into the holder between the seats.
He then began asking me if I ever had an urge to come to such a club, etc. etc. and I said that I didn't want to talk about these things with him.
He kept on asking and trying to draw me into a discussion about it.
I then said to him "if you don't stop I'll just get out now". At first he just ignored me and continued discussing his activities etc. but when I insisted he said ok,I'll stop.
As we traveled on he was silent, BUT I found my eyes pulling themselves toward the Iphone next to me.
Although it was lying face-down I kept glancing at it, as if I wanted to see through it to the screen.
I tried to distract myself by concentrating on looking out the window, but It was futile, It was like "trying NOT to think of purple elephants".
I was getting more and more frustrated that I could not control myself, so I just told the driver "I'm sorry I need to get out right now".
He said that if I did I would still have to pay the originally agreed upon fare, because he was hired for the whole trip. I tried to argue the point but he said "I'm not stopping unless you pay me the full amount!".
I just needed to get away from that car and driver so I paid the full amount and I got out.
I was now under pressure to get to where I needed to be without delay so I hailed the first taxi which came by.
After entering the BACK SEAT of the taxi, (I wasn't taking any chances this time) and saying "please take me to.... quickly!" I noticed that the driver was a woman! (pretty much of a rarity, especially in these neighborhoods), and since it was quite a warm day in Yerushalayim yesterday, her mode of (un)dress reflected the weather.
I again diverted my eyes toward the scenery outside but my mind began "wandering".
This time I did not hesitate for a second and I said "please stop here, I need to get out". (she had turned on the meter right away, so I just paid the meter fare.
This time I made sure to hail a male taxi driver, AND sit in the back seat AND not talk to the driver other than to tell him of my destination.
I was a bit flustered by the whole episode, but I thanked Hashem that I was able to get through it without any serious "mishaps".


How come these stories never happen to me?
Darn!!!!
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Re: first try 06 May 2014 19:19 #231228

unanumun wrote:
...actually I cheated a little and found a kosher outlet for my lust...


Sorry to disagree. There is no such thing as kosher lust, just as there's no kosher ham.
As someone recently mentioned to me. "It's very hard to drink harmless grape juice and keep away from real wine." I guess thats why the Torah forbids a Nazir from "anything that comes from a grapevine".

MT

Re: first try 06 May 2014 19:51 #231229

  • unanumun
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MT
You don't have to apologize for disagreeing.
I don't think you are right. This very different than Kosher ham. This is the real thing, what the whole tayva was given for (when the yetzer hara for arayos was removed the chachamim saw the world can't continue to exist and had the YH reinstated) perhaps in this case it a little of a twist.
I think that as long as the general pattern of relations with one's wife is healthy and not based on lust, (in which case there is obviously a problem) when an occasional desire comes up, there are rules but if they are fulfilled than what's the problem.
the halacha states that if one is aroused by a different woman than it is a problem to be with his wife. Also if the wife feels forced and used, than it is also a problem. (Daytime might be a problem but that is a separate issue)
but if there is just a general urge not related to any specific images or other woman, and things are done in a way where his wife is a willing partner, that is okay in my opinion.
don't get me wrong, obviously if someone is working on his lust problems, it is a cop out and won't help him in the long run,(and that is what i meant by cheating) but if it is an occasional thing it is definitely better than acting out and probably better than spending the whole day fighting the urge.

Re: first try 07 May 2014 08:01 #231284

  • shivisi
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Machshovo Tova wrote:
unanumun wrote:
...actually I cheated a little and found a kosher outlet for my lust...


MT wrote:
Sorry to disagree. There is no such thing as kosher lust, just as there's no kosher ham.
As someone recently mentioned to me. "It's very hard to drink harmless grape juice and keep away from real wine." I guess thats why the Torah forbids a Nazir from "anything that comes from a grapevine".



unanumun wrote:

don't get me wrong, obviously if someone is working on his lust problems, it is a cop out and won't help him in the long run,(and that is what i meant by cheating) but if it is an occasional thing it is definitely better than acting out and probably better than spending the whole day fighting the urge.


Shivisi Responds:
I would like to suggest a compromise:
Going that way wont help for the log term problem, and in some cases might even be somewhat detrimental to the recovery goal, because it is after all a form of giving in to the lust addiction,and on the contrary as far as dealing with the addiction it might even be more productive to "take a fall" rather than to "cheat" in this way,
But I believe that due to the severity of MZL, halachically speaking, this might have to be the right way to choose.
I am aware of the fact that the halacha also recognizes circumstances where a person suffers from a severe addiction, and then certain different actions are in place,(es laasos Lahashem etc., I heard of a case of s/o who suffered from OTC and he would repeat every the shmone esrei 4-5 times in a row every day due to various otc concerns, and when he was brought before the chazon is he was told that he must refrain from davening shmone esrei completely for a whole month!!!), but these cases need a psak from a great posek who is an authority on the subject both of addiction and halacha, but otherwise like i said I would think that the "cheating with wife" way would have to be the way to go.
Last Edit: 07 May 2014 08:02 by shivisi.
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