i don't know if that is 100% accurate either
are you saying we should be meharher about our wives in place of hirhurey aveira?
that is also somewhat making them a sex object for our lust.
lechoira the gemara means that a proper real relationship with ones wife is fulfilling enough that it saves us from lusting.

After clarification we have come to this conclusion:
If the masturbation is a substitute for the sexual relations with the wife, OR if the relations serve as a substitute for lust and masturbation, then-
We are not having proper sexual relations with our spouse but rather a "lust" relation with her, and therefore such a replacement is a possibility.

The gemoro (yevamos 63) with the explanation of Rashi means that if we have proper relationship with our spouse we WILL NOT HAVE hirhurim assurim at all!

This by no means assumes that hirhurim are a substitute of the wife or vice verca. We might rather say It is a REPLACEMENT.

Along these lines we may say that A proper relationship might save us from "acting out in lust" also*, but not as a Substitute lust but rather as a REPLACEMENT.

* not to be confused with the very important statement that "marriage will NOT automatically solve your lust problem" :

Also see my post (response to Tillimzugger)here: guardyoureyes.com/forum/13-BEIS-HAMEDRASH/132454-Gut-GeZogt!?limit=15&start=15

of course its not made to have hiruraeh averah i ment to say it could and should some how ease the inner passion that we have for sex , i think thats what the gemarah is saying it helps us some how but of course not a dirty way of intimacy just in the right way, but for sure there is some merit to sex with our wives easing the devorim assurim.

dd wrote:


And that's EXACTLY what my last explanation just clarified.

Shivisi, I get what you mean now in your earlier post and your perspective is right.

shabbat shalom.

Moshe

I'm glad I brought about some healthy conversation, although I don't truly understand the points being said.

I only know one thing. I will not think about sex at all...not with woman on street; not with Romanian, and not with wife!

that is the only way for me.

So a real and proper relationship with our wives, where we view them as people and not as a means to satisfy our desires for pleasure, can save us from sin.

Unfortunately, for people in lust addiction mode, they are by definition not in the right mind frame for a real relationship with their spouse, so marriage does not help.

I am still addicted to lust but I realize that and I am working on it and I am working on having a real and proper relationship with my wife, that seems to help me with my lust issue as well.
are you saying that I am just imagining that?
if not, then marriage CAN help, the problem is in thinking that marriage by itself is a magic solution and in an addict not ready for marriage unfairly placing his future spouse into his situation.
I definitely do not consider myself an authority on this and I am just posting hirurey leby to hear what the oilam has to say.

No, you're not imagining it.

You are working on yourself, not just relying on marriage to fix it. (Hasn't in the past, right?)
You are making an effort to have a real and proper relationship with your wife, and that does help.

You may be an addict, but you're not in addiction mode.

That's the difference.

and Moshe, although you explained yourself that the sexual energy should not be harnessed towards the wife, but rather with the wife, there is another point here, and that is that for us addicts, we should not allow any sexual energy to begin with.

cordnoy wrote:


Shivisi responds:
Cordnoy: would you please explain what you mean by "not allowing ANY sexual Energy"??
I hope your'e not suggesting abstinence. Although in certain circumstances, (temporary) abstinence can have some advantage on the road to recovery, but the when and how much of it is a very delicate subject which must never be decided on one's own without consulting with someone who has both understanding of the situation AND halachic authority to approve such a step. Although according to straight-up halacha, after one was already mekayem the mitzvah of pru-urvu, there can be room for abstinence when there is mechila from both spouses, but there are many factors to be taken into consideration and therefore it should only be considered after consultation with the truly competent authorities.]

If this is NOT what you meant, please explain what you did mean.

No, I am not suggesting abstinence.
Some do, however, and that might be the correct method for some.

I am commenting on the "sexual energy" that needs to be harnessed.
Us addicts have that energy, for we are thinking about it, lusting after it.

Who says that is a given?

I am going to write something that has not really been touched upon here...at least in this way.

Throughout my thirty years of acting out, I would be walking around aroused for a strong part of the day/night. either thru the street, computer, fantasy, wife, etc. That is what I call sexual energy.

Now, this hardly happens at all. I am not harnessing my sexual energy for my wife or with my wife. I do not have that sexual energy at all.

And, do not take this to mean that I am celibate.....the fireworks in the bedroom has been on an all-time high, but it is not thought about at all outside the bedroom, and even inside - it is not thought about. We allow nature to take its course.

b'hatzlachah