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whats the point?
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TOPIC: whats the point? 12157 Views

Re: whats the point? 19 Jun 2013 19:42 #209750

  • gibbor120
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guy wrote:
First of all I don't really know what the 12 step program is, would you mind explaining?
Also why do you think it's the next logical step?

There is a lot of material on this website about it. I don't think I can do it justice.
Check this out guardyoureyes.com/12-step-program .

I think it is a logical step becuase it has worked for many people, and it's free.

guy wrote:

Regarding my wife, I don't think she knows, sometimes I got the feeling that she does, but I think that was just paranoia on my part. I can't see how it would be beneficial to tell her, I think it would actually totally break her.

I agree. If she knew, it might be easier for you to attend a meeting.

guy wrote:

P.S I have "met" Dov and we're sorta in contact via the PM system.
Thanks.

Great! He has a lot of experience and can be very helpful to you.

Re: whats the point? 19 Jun 2013 19:58 #209753

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guy wrote:
I thought that the shame of opening up to someone would be worth it if I managed to get over it with their help.

Regarding what you wrote about pain, I agree with you 100%, as long as the pain eventually brings about recovery, and as of yet it has not.
I have not given up yet, or else I wouldn't be here, but I don't know any more what to do.


just a disclaimer--i haven't struggled for nearly as long as you have, and take what I say with that in mind.

why did inastruggles post make you mad? I read it and didn't think it insulting in the slightest. I think it could be because of the attitude (and I'm only saying an extreme version of it, which you probably don't have, but you might identify to some degree): GOSHDARNIT, IM TRYING SO HARD AND [bold]NO ONE[/bold] RECOGNIZES IT! HOW DARE HE INSULT MY VALIANT EFFORTS OF 15 YEARS!!

Now, I may be wrong, but it is possible that struggling for this long almost creates the attitude of "well, its hopeless, and I am justified in what I do because I have TRIED so hard. The trying almost becomes a defensive mechanism to assure respectabilit--and when someone insults that, it shatters the self-image one has assumed during the struggle. We spend a long time developing an image of ourselves that we can live with; we justify our situation, actions, and attiruses

I could be VERY wrong, and if so, please call me an idiot and disregard and what I am saying. but your quote about shame being a motivator--thats an outside source of motivation. if this activity were socially acceptable, would you still stop?. IT CANT BE THE FEAR OF EMBARRASSMENT THAT IS OUR MOTIVATOR. It must be within, to come to a closer relationship with Hashem.

The frustration of failure makes us angry at God. However, we must LET God help us--is it possible that Hashem was trying to help you, but you weren't letting him? Recovery is about building an authentic relationship with Hashem, in my opinion. And we cant question the ways that Hashem chooses to operate in--have you undergone more pain than 6 million who never questioned Him?

I'm a lot younger, so maybe my experience is inapplicable. I could blame my struggle on a lot of things--divorced parents, a public high school, social anxiety, etc.

I would have very good excuaes--in fact, I could even blame Hashem and villify my parents for not giving me the 100% perfect parenting that I DESERVE.

We don't DESERVE anything. we are entitled to nothing. You can look Sst a half-filled cup as half empty--I DESERVE a full cup and got cheated by 50%--or you could see it as half full--Wow, I am not entitled to anything, but Baruch Hashem for being so kind to me for giving me a HALF CUP!!! WOW!!! Half the worlds population doesn't have clean water, but I do!!!!

I could blame Hashem for everything. We could live our lives wallowing in self pity about how we deserve more, and how our problems aren't our fault.

Nu. Maybe we're correct on some level. But who is living your life--you or your parents, God, the media?? You are. deep down, we all reqlize that there is a better, more happy life for ourselves out there--thats why we are trying to quit. So are yiy going to say "oh well, its not my fault" and remain unhappy, or are you going to go out there and become happy and start living? Because ultimately, we are the ones that live.

Another thing that is invaluable: FORGIVE. First, forgive yourself. then, forgive God. then, forgive anyone else that may have hurt you. Its hard. but if you don't, the wounds will stay with you foreverC and they will hurt you EVERY SECOND. IF not, you can move past them.

with that being said, this addiction isn't overcome through sheer struggling. You can try swimming against the current, or you can get out of the river. In the wield of addiction, there is no "l'fum tza'ara Agra".

Please understand that I said all of this in an effort to be helpful--if it wasn't, I apologize and please forgive me.

Dov--do u mind being a little less explicit? I know partof recovery is about not sugar coating what we did, but still.
Last Edit: 19 Jun 2013 20:31 by Chachaman.

Re: whats the point? 19 Jun 2013 20:03 #209755

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Guy-/I really feel for you, and I will daven for you. Know that things are going to get better--GYE is a special place, and feel free to message me if there is anything at all I can do to help. The pain is very hard to bear--I know--but if we can let go of all baggage, things will improve. I know about how much baggage sucks--i feel for you.
Last Edit: 19 Jun 2013 20:39 by Chachaman.

Re: whats the point? 20 Jun 2013 19:04 #209850

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Dov wrote:

But if you are like many of us, the gift of therapy or pf figuring it out will not do us much good, if any, unless you and I surrender the right to lusting and are abstinent from it (our drug of choice) during that process.


When I first came here four years ago and read a similar statement from Dov, it was a game changer for me. Giving up my right to lust.

That's what commitment means.

Yyasher Kochaco Dov for your tireless efforts here.

Re: whats the point? 20 Jun 2013 19:32 #209853

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I agree. I used to say (in my head) something like "G-d it's not fair. How do you expect me to guard my eyes when there is so much shmutz around? How is it possible? Why do you give me such difficult nisyonos? Why couldn't it just be mutar and I wouldn't have this problem? I want to be able to lust. Poor me, I can't."

I had to accept that Hashem knows best, give up my "right" to lust, and give up my self-pity. Instead focus on what can I do to be useful today. As Dov says in his signature "the heck with me, what can I do for you". That change of focus made a HUGE difference. My life got better from this small change of mindset. My wife noticed it too.

I'm far, very far, from perfect on this, but even a small change, made a BIG difference.

Re: whats the point? 20 Jun 2013 20:25 #209856

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DOV,
STUNNING WORDS!
thanks for being out there for us!

Re: whats the point? 21 Jun 2013 03:47 #209930

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Chachaman wrote:
Dov--do u mind being a little less explicit? I know part of recovery is about not sugar coating what we did, but still.


No, I cannot, chaver. I think that helping people perhaps get sober is far more important than whatever reason you may have for me being less explicit. And I respect you as a friend (at least a virtual one !). I also believe that sugar-coating is exactly what we all do in order to maintain just enough self-respect so that we can continue the same lifestyle of meshigineh 'struggling' and losing.

So why would I want to be part of the problem?

I respect you and what you do here, a lot, Chachaman. And much of what I wrote may not apply to you. I recognize that not all guys here are as bad as some others here. So let's make a deal. The last time I checked, the average porn-using frum guy here was not just looking at girl-scout cookie ads. When most of us here look at our porn or use fantasy in our heads, it's about terrible, embarrassing stuff: naked people having sex, plain and poshut - and worse. We are looking at the most explicit stuff there is. So I need to be explicit about recovery, too.

As soon as you can show me that 'impropriety' is not occurring over and over at the hands of us frummies here while we are at our computers going from image to image of schmutz, or while we are desperately masturbating ourselves to explicit fantasy, I will gladly tone down my descriptions of what our lusting is really all about. And I mean that seriously, respectfully, and as a real friend.

Sincerely,

Dov

P.S. So many guys say they 'opened up' to their Rabbi or a friend about this issue, or that they "pray to Hashem for help" for it, etc. Yet many are not telling the truth - for they are not explicit about it enough to give forth an honest picture of what's really going on with them!

For example, they say, "I was nichshol, rebbi, in shmiras eynayim and come lidei zera levatola, often b'ratzon....I am so ashamed." Or they say such things in sh'moneh esrei at Sh'ma koleinu or S'lach lonu...as if Hashem has time for such meaningless talk.

Here we were last night, sitting and chatting with some strange girl and using explicit and vulgar language - because it's expressing ourselves and our real desires (at the time)...but when it comes to talking with Yedid nafsheinu the Ribono shel Olam, we are indirect? All of a sudden makpid on nivul peh?! And no, I am not talking about using the F-word in davening at all! That's just cursing, and totally different than what I am referring to. No, I am not saying 'two wrongs make a right' - and I am not advocating the describing of sexual fantasies to Hashem or others in lurid detail. But there is a big difference between frivolous detail that is meant to excite - and between blunt, painful honesty that I can cry about. It's just the truth. It hurts to expose the truth - so it helps. Cuz it is the change that it hurting so much, not the shame!

So I use the phrase 'sex with my wife' in sh'moneh esrei when I am talking to Him about concerns I have with sex with my wife. I use the word 'masturbation' when I am talking to Him about masturbation, and if I was struggling with the desire to look at a certain woman's chest, I say to Him in Sh'emoneh esrei those exact words. He knows it all - He won't faint ! I see no reason to pretend I am really about bechinos of klipos, or something. He may see it that way, but it's none of my business. He wants my heart - Rachmonoh liba bo'ei. Your heart si your real heart...not what your heart 'should' be.

Isn't Emess the only avodah sh'bleiv there really is?

So I believe that anyone who says considerations of 'lashon nekiyah' gets in the way of being factual and honest, has a very different experience and understanding of tefiloh than I do. And such tefiloh would be useless to me now, just as it was all those years that I was busy masturbating myself in yeshivah and davening with 'propriety'.

But if it is working for you, that's great. And I mean it.

(Boy, another megillah! )
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: whats the point? 21 Jun 2013 04:00 #209931

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Just a short post to skew the megillah-ratio statistics.

Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: whats the point? 21 Jun 2013 04:32 #209934

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I completely agree Dov, and please write more megillos if they are as helpful as th one you just wrote. Honesty with ourselves and stopping to try sugar coatin things is crucial.

however, how would you respond to the ta'ana that some people might find that content slightly triggering? For example, the word naked could be a trigger.

do you respond "too bad, you should work more on recovery", or do you respond that avoiding triggers is important? Do you also point out that these triggers are always going to be there, and we need to learn to adjust?

Re: whats the point? 21 Jun 2013 12:55 #209944

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There have been times when reading explicit words have triggered me. However, reading Dov's paragraph about what it is that we watch really struck me and pointed out clearly how shameful it is. I think porn does work by making us believe that it's something beautiful and good just actors producing something that's nice to watch, like a TV show, but if you think of it in terms of two people having sex and I'm pervertly watching them, it feel different.

I'll open up here (even if I don't use my real name) and say that I have never opened up to anyone about this. The closest I got was telling the mashgiach once that I didn't think Hashem would give me a shidduch because of the aveiros I've done. I think he understood what I meant but I never said it. I do say it explicitly to Hashem though.

Re: whats the point? 21 Jun 2013 16:47 #209952

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Yeah, innocent people may get 'triggered'. But I consider that unfortunate collateral damage and worth it as long as the target (an addict's self-deception and sugar-coating) is targeted more effectively. I occasionally ask Hashem to help me write the right stuff and not the wrong stuff and frequently ask Him to spare me from my pride. That's a constant danger, of course. Is there more I could do? Probably.

And by the way, I truly believe that the true addicts (the minority here on GYE - most here [and most goyim, too] are just normals with a yetzer hora and not perverts like me) will not be negatively affected by honest, clear descriptions of what's going on. Rather, it is the non-addicts who are more likely to be 'shocked' by the 'adult content' of posts that are shamelessly clear and honest. Nu.

Do I say to them to "work more on recovery"? No, for they are probably not addicts, to recover! I would say to them to please ignore what they find triggering. What else can I say? I certainly won't sacrifice the addict minority for the non-addict majority. For I deem that the damage of the addicts is colossal to their wives, children, and klal Yisroel and more than makes up for our relatively small number. I guess the temptations of the non-addicts should be addressed by their Rabbanim and religious mentors. That's not my area, frankly.

I hope I do not sound cruel. I just do not know what else to do but pray and try!
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: whats the point? 21 Jun 2013 16:48 #209953

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Where did Guy go? Was he hijacked out of existence?
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: whats the point? 23 Jun 2013 14:34 #210038

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Nope.Still here.
Just haven't had anything intelligent to say.
But now I want to share something with you guys, don't know if it's intelligent or not.

I haven't had a real urge to watch porn and/or masturbate since the day after I joined GYE, which was 12 days ago. When I say that I haven'e had the urge, I don't mean that it's all been smooth sailing, I have had the occasional prick of desire, but I have easily brushed it aside. That in itself was confusing to me, since I have no clue why I haven't been tempted strongly ( according to Dov it's a waste of time to think about that anyway right? ). That lasted until today.
Today I sat down in front of my computer and I was suddenly hit by that overpowering feeling of pressure, that feeling that I gotta watch porn RIGHT NOW or else explode!
So I came here to try and stop myself somehow, and while looking through a members posts I saw a post of skepticals which basically said "calm down, relax, take a deep breath, nothing will happen to you if you don't do this right now". That really helped and I calmed down a lot. It still wasn't easy but without that post I would have been lost.
I guess that what I'm really saying here is:thanks!
Thank you to everyone who helped to create this site and to every and any one that contributes. Keep posting, you don't know who might be reading or who might be saved through reading what you wrote.
I don't know if I'm an addict or just another guy with a yetzer hara and a BEEP .
But I do know that up till now I have not been able to stop myself completely. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end.
As usual any thoughts are appreciated.

Re: whats the point? 23 Jun 2013 19:06 #210048

  • cordnoy
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Thank you dov, chacham, gibbor, guy and others.

I am a newbie here
Wrote part of my story on different post.

Just wanna chime in that these forums are a great method for avoidance. When one has a tayva, just come here and browse for a while.

It does not accomplish dov's commitment to abstinence, but the more times you win over that yetzer hara, the more ammunition you'll have for the big fight, which for me, I hope it comes soon.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
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GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: whats the point? 23 Jun 2013 21:08 #210055

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cordnoy
It does not accomplish dov's commitment to abstinence, but the more times you win over that yetzer hara, the more ammunition you'll have for the big fight, which for me, I hope it comes soon.


What is "the big fight" and why do you hope for it to come soon?
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