hey YM,

Yes what you describe is verry common. But, lust is lust and it needs to be avioded with "frum" "tznius" women as well. Poison is poison.

yungerman83 wrote:


I have a really big problem with this. For me, she doesn't need to be bending over or anything. I find myself constantly comparing the single or newly married girls I see with my wife. I'm very attracted to frum girls, the more 'eidel-looking', the more attracted. My wife is fantastic but she's not the prettiest girl around and I often feel bad deep down when I see prettier girls around. I feel like I'm missing out for life on something that so many others have. I find the feeling to be a major trigger to want to look at pictures online (often not pornographic, just pretty girls,), especially when she's behaving in a way I find difficult. I think it's mostly the porn talking but there is some truth to it. It's a real problem.

I have no idea how to deal with it.

A few points. Do you think if you had married one of those "other girls" - you would not have this problem? Do you think those with pretty wives don't have this problem?

There are always prettier girls out there than your wife, and even if you marry the prettiest girl out there, she will get pregnant, get older etc. No one's wife can compare with images online or in magazines (which are heavily photoshopped BTW, so they are not even real).

I remember that when I started dating, friends told me that even if a girl doesn't attract you initially, if you like her, you will find her more attractive. I didn't understand it until I dated myself and saw how love could make someone more attractive. Even in marriage, my wife is more attractive to me when I feel love towards her.

If you give up the shmutz and enhance your relationship with your wife (primarily by giving, giving, giving without expecting anything in return), you will find that you are more attracted to her than you think.

You mention 2 things that point to it being more than a purely physical issue.

1- "the more 'eidel-looking', the more attracted."
2- "especially when she's behaving in a way I find difficult."

Why should an eidel person be more attractive?
Why should you find others more attractive when your wife is "being difficult"?

I have my ideas, but I'm going to leave it as an open question.

gibbor120 wrote:


1- that's my taste. When I was dating I sort of wanted a quiet, eidel girl. My mashgiach thought I needed someone with more personality, which is what I have, and he was right, it's what I need. But in the back of my mind I still see those girls as desirable.

2- I think I would find it easier that my wife isn't the prettiest if all the other things that make a marriage (more important things) were really good. But when she's being difficult I feel a bit like she hasn't got the looks or the middos. It's very harsh I know and I'm far from perfect myself (that's why I'm here for a start) but that's how I feel sometimes. When I feel that way I find myself thinking about what it would be like if I married one of these prettier, quieter girls (even though it was never really shiyach for me). It bothers me to think this way and it's not constructive.

I still think that if you work on enhancing your relationship with your wife, the other issues will fall away, or at least lessen considerably.

Also, all those nice looking eidel girls have flaws that you would discover if you were married to them. They wouldn't seem nearly as nice looking or eidel as they do from afar.

Imagine them having a very bad temper at home, or very demanding, or being very sad and depressed, or really disheveled and unkempt. People look nice on the outside, but you don't know what they are like on the inside. Using your imagination to imagine the worst rather than the best may help.

Interesting that that this topic just came up, because i just asked it to my friend (with whom i constantly talk to about our struggles).
Living in Yerushalayim, but growing up in a community that is not all jews, i have realized that the streets of yerushalayim are much much more dangerous for me than in let's say Dallas, Texas! Isn't that weird, i asked him.

His answer was 1) that since they are frum, we feel that they are more likely to be our "victims" 2) they dress as a bas melech, with dignity, which makes them look better

whatever the case is, we have to learn how to Gaurd our Eyes, not "even from frum women" but ESPECIALLY from frum women!!

[quote="qi" post=206791. My wife is fantastic but she's not the prettiest girl around and I often feel bad deep down when I see prettier girls around. I feel like I'm missing out for life on something that so many others have. .[/quote]

I've been following this thread and find it fascinating. I have 3 point to make.

1. Mainly to Qi, but this isn't going to be helpful to you, but since this is still on the "introduce yourself threads" and not "Baalai baatims Forum" It's really advice for the Bochurim out there. When I was dating and in the middle of a shidduch, I went to my Mashgiach, (one of the biggest in the Torah World nowadays, name supplied if I am allowed) and I went to discuss the Shidduch with him, I was going wellish, but...I wasn't sure. He took me to his study, closed the soundproof doors, and said "O.K we're in private now, what about her looks?" I almost fell of my chair, as a young bocher to be discussing a girls looks with one of the true greats of our generation!!
The truth was I didn't really like her looks that much, and my mashgiach told me that yes this was enough to drop it, after another date or two.
This Shidduch obviously didn't work out, and I thank Hashem for sending that important piece of Hadracha. I am now happily married now for nearly 20 years.
I was told that I have to look forward to seeing her at the next date, heart skipping a beat kind of feeling, not have a dread feeling in the pit of my stomach. Now that's not Love, after a few dates how can it be?, it's not Lust I hope, but it is some basic attraction, she must be attractive to you.
So this is good basic shidduch advice and I'm sure Qi you had that too at one point. If so it can always be continued and cultivated.
Points 2 & 3 to follow...

gibbor120 wrote:


This is really my point 2.
Backed up with a Dvar Torah, about לא תחמוד.
Don't be jealous of your friends wife. car, house, they have what they have but it comes with it's own price tag, everyone has his own Pekel, that goes with it, that is in fact how the possuk continues, את כל אשר לרעך, if you want your friends belongings, then comes with it his whole personal pekel too.
(I forget who says this)

Finally, I'm not so sure about the frum ladies, in your areas, you seem to have a problem with ALL FRUM ladies.
I see the problem like this, I think there are some ladies who do know how to dress in an unprovocative way. But there are a lot and I mean a lot who really push the boundaries of צניעות. Whether it be tight fitting clothes, bright colours or flashy shoes Zippers, jewellery, long sheitals, they are all calling out "look at me" which we do, try not to, but we do.
Now this is a tricky one, we can't blame our women for wanting to look good, but there are boundaries.
Maybe we are at fault for looking, we learn on GYE how to train ourselves not too, but the 'Frum' women don't need to make it harder for us.
Like to know your thoughts on this one.

israel613120 wrote:


Yes, you are right it is more in my area, which is not Meah Shearim, but more the polar opposite (guess where if you can), but even the ones who don't dress exceedingly fancy, meaning it's not terribly tight, nor extremely neon, or long sheitels, still get to me more than the average shiksa.
Are we supposed to tell everyone to dress like they do in Meah Shearim? I think those inbetween meah shearim and extremely fancy aren't pushing the limits, so we're left to our own devices of not looking.

Just my two cents, and i would actually like to hear what the oilam thinks.

yungerman83 wrote:
I also hear you. It is much harder to fantasize about someone/something which is completely off the table.

So as a solution, I cordially invite you to my small out of town community without so many frum women.

Yes, there are many frum women who push the limit of tzniyus (to be generous). There are women who are tzniyus that we lust after anyways.

At the end of the day it's irrelevant cuz you don't have any control over that whatsoever. It's just self-pity "I wish they wouldn't dress like that...", "if my wife would only...".

We need to focus on changing the only thing we have control over - ourselves!

Just wanted to thank everyone who's been contributing their support and two cents on this topic. I am happy to hear that others share the same feeling. I was zoche B"H to a terrific week in my shmiras einayim. Whenever I came across frum women in the street, I was able to keep my habit of looking in check and happily told myself, "don't even think about looking there, it's worthless, and besides, I don't want to let my new GYE friends down." So thank you again to everyone and looking forward to more continued chizuk!

Nice going, chaver. Once you learn what works for you, just keep at it and get better at it.

Hatzlacha

MT

Wow fascinating
I'm with yungerman and Qi about this I find this a very hard struggle. To me frum women are more of a realty I think why can't my wife be that way? Why can't she be as pretty as we'll dressed ( though its usually more proactively dressed that I don't want her to dress like) why can't she have it together like that women ect ect ect

Gibbur your right in all you say
NO I don't think that I won't have this problem if I was married to these women of course I will this is MY problem and I need to own up to it.
And YES I do know that theses women have faults that I could never be married to them that I'll never be happy with them that I don't want them to be the mother of my children BUT I still feel a rush when I see them I still feel a "downer" about my wife I still FEEL like why can't or don't I have that. Is it jealousy yea most probably is it Usser maybe should I not thing like that (that why I'm here posting this) for sure. My point is that this is what I FEEL and when I do it's very real although on a Intellectual level I may now other wise and it a major trigger for me.
Thanx for listening.